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#145797 - 03/17/07 01:57 PM forgiveness vs. accountability
tartugas Offline
Board Member
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 02/11/07
Posts: 513
Loc: NYC
I think that there is a big difference between forgiving our abusers (and anyone, by extension who does us harm) and holding people accountable for their actions. WE can forgive anyone at anytime and in so doing, take onto ourselves the burden of the effects wrongdoing. This does not stop us from requiring or demanding that a person be held accountable for their actions. What it does do is release us from the trap of needing something that we may never get from someone in order to make progress in our own healing. The sad truth is that many of us may never have the opportunity to hold our abusers accountable for their crimes, but that does not stop us from being able to forgive the crimes themselves and move forward in our healing.

That's the main point. I'll flesh it out below if you want to read through my thinking. But from this point on, I'm simply elaborating on what I said above. I cribbed some of this from a post I made in the spirituality forum, so I do use the term sin. If that's not a word you're comfortable with, subtitute the word crime, it still holds.

Personally I have come to recognize that forgivness is one of the most powerful tools available to the survivor. It can release the survivor from the vortex of past pains relived and give us a sense of empowerment.

One thing that really helped me understand the importance and power of forgiveness was to learn about the "debt" nature of sin. In brief, every time someone "wrongs" someone else, some kind of debt is created that must be paid off. For example, if a friend of ours breaks a lamp accidentally, the loss of the lamp is a form of debt. We are no longer in possession of something we previously had. Also if we are not given something to which we are entitled (nurturing, protection, an object which we have paid someone for) then a similar debt also exists.

If we ourselves are wronged we have two options, we can seek payment for that debt from someone else (by either going after the one who wronged us seeking restitution, or by passing along the burden to someone else), or we can assume the responsibility for the debt ourselves and pay for the damage out of our own resources. We can pay to replace the lamp out of our own savings; we can look within to find the resources and strength needed to nurture ourselves when that help will not come from those who were supposed to give it. Inevitably this second option is more painful, as it requires us to assume a burden that was not of our own creation, but it is the only way to kill off the legacy of any individual sin (or crime, if you prefer not to use the word sin).

But when we forgive someone, all that means is that we have assumed a debt that they are unwilling (or unable) to pay. This does not mean that the guilty party is absolved of their crime. There is still a need for justice and accountability that no amount of forgiving will wipe away. The problem is that, for many of us survivors, holding someone accountable for their crimes against us may be impossible. The perp may be dead, or we may have no way of ever finding or contacting that person. In this case you can still forgive the person who wronged you. Forgiveness and accountability are two separate actions.

Would I like to see every abuser strung up and held accoutable for their crimes? Of course. But I also accept that this fantasy has less to do with righting the wrongs they did than with soothing my own sense of injury. I may not have the power to see every criminal punished in this world, but I do have the power to set an example for all those who are victims.

I know this is likely to stir up some big emotions. I hope that if you disagree with me, you will tell me so. I freely admit I might be wrong, but I'll never know that unless someone teaches me. You are all my teachers.

_________________________
"I am not a mechanism, an assembly of various sections.
And it is not because the mechanism is working wrongly, that I am ill.
I am ill because of wounds to the soul, to the deep emotional self...."
Healing D.H. Lawrence

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#145800 - 03/17/07 02:11 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: tartugas]
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11047
Loc: Denver, CO
tartugas,

I like what you say about the subject.

"But when we forgive someone, all that means is that we have assumed a debt that they are unwilling (or unable) to pay."

If I may offer...

I tend to think of it as more like canceling a debt that is owed me when I forgive it. I don't actually assume their debt to me as an unpaid debt that I now owe someone else. Either way, the end for me is a peace of heart and mind that I cannot achieve if I am still holding that debt over someone I cannot reach for accountability.

Thoughts?

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#145801 - 03/17/07 02:14 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: tartugas]
pietie Offline
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Registered: 01/23/07
Posts: 326
Loc: South Africa
Hi T

I hear what you say and i agree with you (no matter how painfull this truth is). The pain i am currently experiencing makes it so difficult to even talk about forgivness. I dont want to forgive but i know to be set free and move on with my life i need to do it. You are brave to address this issue :-)

Something i struggle with and dont understand is the fact that i have gone through forgivness and thought i did it. Yet every now and then (and especially now that i am facing the abuse) i feel as if i have not forgiven. All the emotions and yes, hate is back.

Originally Posted By: tartugas
Personally I have come to recognize that forgivness is one of the most powerful tools available to the survivor. It can release the survivor from the vortex of past pains relived and give us a sense of empowerment.

For example, if a friend of ours breaks a lamp accidentally, the loss of the lamp is a form of debt. We are no longer in possession of something we previously had. Also if we are not given something to which we are entitled (nurturing, protection, an object which we have paid someone for) then a similar debt also exists.

We can pay to replace the lamp out of our own savings; we can look within to find the resources and strength needed to nurture ourselves when that help will not come from those who were supposed to give it.


The above is one of the best illustrations i have heard about forgivness. Thank you so much for sharing.

_________________________
Not Perfect, just forgiven

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#145806 - 03/17/07 02:51 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: pietie]
philobat Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/31/07
Posts: 293
Loc: California
Bullshit. No one has to forgive the unforgivable. Screw that!

Let those perps live a life of suffering and shame and guilt.

We just talk it out and support each other. Forgiveness has nothing to do with freedom or moving on.

Read The Grief Recovery Handbook.


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#145818 - 03/17/07 04:06 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: philobat]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
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Posts: 2437
i second that philo! people here tell me im a good person that i have done ok to get to this point that its a miracle i survived , that its amazing im not a serial killer ,i think i have done ok without forgiving or giving up my anger. and nothing fires that anger up any quicker than being told i have to forgive to heal.to me forgiving is giving a part of me to the bastard that hurt me ,after all he took from me i will not give anything to him freely. i would rather die pissed at him than give him one more little piece of me.forgivness is mine to do with as i please ,its mine! i have control ! i DONT HAVE TO DO IT! ISNT THAT WHAT ABUSE IS ABOUT CONTROL?AND ISNT HEALING ABOUT TAKING CONTROL BACK? sorry not angry ,hit caps by mistake heh. forgivness comes from the heart ,there is nothing in my heart for that bastard .

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#145837 - 03/17/07 05:48 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: shadowkid]
tartugas Offline
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Registered: 02/11/07
Posts: 513
Loc: NYC
philo and shadow,

Don't get me wrong, I don't think forgiveness is being nice to our abusers. And regardless of whether or not we choose to forgive (and I'm not at all trying to say that we must forgive) we can, and should, try to hold them accountable. And trust me, I still have anger. If anything I would say that maybe I need to get more in touch with my anger.

shadow, of course you are free to do anything you choose to do, as am I. I would never try to tell anyone that I know what they must do to heal. I can share with everyone my own story and my steps towards healing, but some of what works for me, might not work for you.

ExTx,

I would say that in order to cancel a debt, there must be some kind of payment made. If you forgive the friend who broke your lamp, either you pay for it yourself, or you choose to live without it. We all hope to get to the same end of peace and happiness, but I think it's important to acknowledge that a price must be paid in order to achieve it.

_________________________
"I am not a mechanism, an assembly of various sections.
And it is not because the mechanism is working wrongly, that I am ill.
I am ill because of wounds to the soul, to the deep emotional self...."
Healing D.H. Lawrence

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#145852 - 03/17/07 09:03 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: tartugas]
jamie' Offline
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Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 125
Loc: Ont, Can
I ditto shadow and philo aswell. I'm more struck with questions like dose forgivness need to be made in order to progress and recover. Because frankly i dont think forivness would be possible for me. Ditto shadow for the serial killer thing aswell.

I'd like to see thing's in an uplifting possitive way but i cant. the way i see it someone by there own choice took control and abused someone else. Today the only one that i could probably see would be my uncle and i know i couldnt look in his face and say i forgive you. Forgivness by it's definition is the act of excussing a mistake or offense, a pardon. The only reason i might is if he had any guilt my act of forgivness would hurt him more. Possibly edge him towards suicide...yet thats wishful thinking. So if i cannot forgive then what price can i pay to achieve peace.

_________________________
No matter how long and dark the night is, Or the fear and hurt that it can bring, there will always be a dawn, where we can push the past aside and move forward with hope.

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#145866 - 03/17/07 10:59 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: tartugas]
Morning Star Offline
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Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: Home


Our ability to forgive as a victim is a first and the only believable sign of our personal recovery.

Otherwise we might have spent years in therapy, and wasted so many precious trying to put the pieces together and we’d still be as wounded as we might have started, and sometimes even more. As often digging deeper than necessary, only leaves us more wounded and broken inside.

The result? We remained filled with anger within, as our resident anger is only a symptom of wounds lying unhealed within. Our goal then, has to be healing ourselves and not get even with our abusers. They will be taken care of, by the wheels of Karma itself.

If we focus so much on the abuse and abusers we forget to live or heal ourselves. And continue to live the life our abuse condemned us to, we live our entire life as a victim.

Have you ever wondered why healing takes so long to occur in so many victims, when all we need to do, is to forgive and move on?

The answer I received is that even willingness to forgive comes with Grace.

Otherwise we continue to only fester our own old wounds, and live the life of hurts and repeated old wounds. It is a cycle every victim has to opt out of, on his own, and in his own time.

God’s time is eternity.

Because the ultimate lesson in surviving any kind of abuse of power is to know that the only power we have as human being is to switch from our physical and mental power to the power of the Self within - the power of our spirit within.

That is what the famous animation flick 'Final Fantasy - The Spirit within', elaborates so amiably. That the only true victory, we can ever achieve in life, is by surrendering and making peace to our demons within. That is when all the demons on the outside, disappear on their own.

It is tricky to understand, yet that is the way out according to me.

As for Grace, it comes easy with Humility.

As to forgive, we first need to be humble enough to receive the vision of our past follies that resulted in our present predicaments.

No soul is bright enough to condemn another fellow soul, and no soul is dark enough to not be retrieved from its darkness. We transcend as race only when we step into t he light together, no one would be left behind eventually, as that is what true Grace means, and does.

We are all in this together, what we hate in another so vehemently lies within us, till we make peace within, we will continue to fight this loosing battle.

As always, the true enemy lies within. And making peace within is the only known pathway to a healed self.

That is why Self forgiveness is what freeing ourselves from our own curse of the past. Only when we can forgive ourselves, do we find enough courage to forgive anyone else.

I have also realized that, as long as I remained angry, I could blame someone else for all the mess I personally brought myself into, but always had ready excuses for not going right out and making all the right efforts to save myself.

It is courage and humility to accept that we are as condemnable as human beings as any one else on earth, so what gives us the right to condemn any other?

We are equal in God’s eyes, as we are al sinners of the past and all his beloved children, he preferred no one to another.

Who know what we have gone through is also a part of a past retribution against us? So ask got to free yourself from the pain, and the first thing he will do is to give you the strength to forgive and move on.

If you cannot forgive, simply ask for help from the One who forgives us all instantly.

To learn to forgive, we need to be willing to let go the power of a righteous victim has - the power to condemn anyone who has hurt us.

Who knows what crimes of ours we are ourselves paying for in this life?

So to forgive, really is to forgive ourselves, as for anger when we really go to its core, we realize that all anger is merely emanating from anger at one self.

Otherwise we continue to speak the language of our past wounds for the rest of our lives, and keep the wounds alive and abuse continuing in various ways than we can ever understand right now.

What we do not let go stays with us, forever. It is our power to let go, only then we can free ourselves to step into the life we were meant to live, once the night is over.

That is why I believe the most breakthrough argument in healing is provided by Caroline Myss (herself a CSA survivor), in her landmark book - WHY DON'T PEOPLE HEAL.

Where she mentions that so much is the power of the victim archetype that it immobilizes us into our own worst nightmare, and we continue to recreate them, again and again, knowingly and unknowing, till we learn to willing let go. Till we are wiling to go down on our knees and ask for redemption ourselves, we stay victims forever.

Humility is one big lesson of being a victim, who else would have gone through most disempowering experiences in life, and still feel powerful because he has just connected with his inner power - the divine Self. There is no greater power than that, believe you me, not even the power to destroy all evil in our life.

Surrender is the most powerful tool, we human being will ever have, as what we embrace in ourselves dissolves completely. So when we accept whatever has happened to us, completely and it is gone forever.

We not just release our abusers; but also ourselves from memories of abuse, forever.

It is the gift of freedom we owe to our self, from our worst possible nightmare and our darkest prison.



_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#145878 - 03/18/07 01:03 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Morning Star]
jamie' Offline
Guest

Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 125
Loc: Ont, Can
I disagree with you post MS. And that's ok. We are not all religious, so dont believe things like we are all sinners ect. That's me and i know you were trying to help.

I have to ask.

Why did you choose the handle morning star?. Did you know that is a name for lucifer.



Edited by jamie' (03/18/07 01:04 AM)
_________________________
No matter how long and dark the night is, Or the fear and hurt that it can bring, there will always be a dawn, where we can push the past aside and move forward with hope.

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#145884 - 03/18/07 01:58 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: jamie']
Morning Star Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: Home
I am glad that we can choose to disagree, and still keep our peace. To each his own, as they aptly put it so aptly. Though this only my two penny worth….

As for Lucifer, I have no knowledge about that; I am not a Christian, in this life.

Though I fully understand the original intent behind calling ourselves 'sinners'. It was not at all meant to be a condemnation of us human being, but rather as a safeguard to keep us away from indulging in this unnecessary habit of judging fellow human beings or being self-righteous, as we have an innate propensity for it.

And that itself keeps us from not crossing over into the light. As in truth, there is not side, dark or light, it is what we create from within. True surrender is going beyond both, not trying to be good or evil, just ourselves, we don’t have to save anyone, or ourselves, we have saved already as we are God’s children to begin with.

When we continue to divide the world between light and dark side, good and evil, we get trapped in this unnecessary game of, this versus that. Not knowing that in truth, they are all one, all manifestations of the same Divine being.

God, is unconditional in His love, so He condemns no one, only those turn their back away from love momentarily, feel cut off from it, like a man blindfolded on a sunny day.

We can open our hearts to love any moment we choose, as God or the Universe is always ready to receive us with joy and grace, as only a Father, a Creator can feel for His children, His Creation.



_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#145888 - 03/18/07 02:21 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Morning Star]
Hauser Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
Loc: United States
Forgiveness didn't do anything for me. In my discussions with Shadowkid, he tries to help me, by bringing to the surface, SOME kind of anger towards my abusers. (thereby keeping me from being angry at myself perhaps)?

The anger towards them just isn't there. I can't be angry with them, and I can't hate them, and I HAVE forgiven them LONG ago.

But that still didn't help me! I'm still a God Damned loser by any stretch of the definition. I'm a fucking 38yo dishwasher for Christ's sake. I've achieved about as much in my life as the drunk you see passed out on 17th and Lexington in NYC.

Forgivness didn't do SHIT for me.


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#145891 - 03/18/07 02:33 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Hauser]
Morning Star Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: Home

You are right there; Anger triggers are all within us, and hating external triggers or avoiding them, makes us miss us all healing opportunities life offers, and we might stay unhealed, for a long time.

Sometimes, very deep-seated anger gets inverted on ourselves or gets hidden deep behind layers of fear, as fear stops us expressing this anger as it happens during abuse, fear stuns us or immobilizes us and we might not feel any anger in the present or it might get misdirected to easy targets like our inner self or even God.

Forward, that's the only way life moves, and as long as we are willing to work on our healing and move ahead, it is all right. As truly, anger releasing is also a process, just as forgiving oneself is.


_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#145895 - 03/18/07 02:54 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Morning Star]
WalkingSouth Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16264
Chris,

I appreciate your post and the analogy's you draw. This subject come up from time to time and it always evokes strong reactions. ALWAYS. Perhaps that is a good thing as long as we can remain civil toward each other in the process.

I, as you, would never presume to tell another of my fellow travelers here how it must be for them in order to heal, but I think for me the path is much closer to what you have described than it is to the opposing view. I would also add that like you, I would never release the person from the justice that should come their way for the crime they committed.

Lots of love,

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#145906 - 03/18/07 04:05 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: WalkingSouth]
jamie' Offline
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Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 125
Loc: Ont, Can
Hauser, You're never a loser until you quit trying.

_________________________
No matter how long and dark the night is, Or the fear and hurt that it can bring, there will always be a dawn, where we can push the past aside and move forward with hope.

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#145916 - 03/18/07 10:15 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: jamie']
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Quote:
As for Grace, it comes easy with Humility.


Yeah right. Easy. ;\)

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#145917 - 03/18/07 10:18 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: jamie']
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Morning Star,

Great posts. I'm interested in which faith you follow.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#145921 - 03/18/07 11:54 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Nobbynobs]
tartugas Offline
Board Member
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 02/11/07
Posts: 513
Loc: NYC
Morning Star,

I really enjoyed reading your posts, and I must admit was rather surprised to hear hat you were not a Christian, since so much of your personal theology is in line with the basic teachings of Christianity (though, sadly, not of many of the sects thereof). Please don't think I'm trying to preach, testify, or convert, as I am myself not curretnly at home with any church.

I also believe that there is a lot of truth in what you say. The power of forgiveness can be transformational, however I would like to add that I do not think that we are necessarily doomed to a life of suffering if we find ourselves unable to forgive. For many, forgiving ourselves and moving forward in our recovery can only happen by shifting the guilt onto the backs of those who abused us. There are some people whose entire recovery journey is possible only because they have done this. Now we can certainly discuss whether or not this would be the way we would choose to go, but I won't ever tell anyone that their path is incorrect. If it brings them out of the shadows and givens them enough momentum to start moving forward in their lives, then they are succeeding in a task at which far far too many fail.

Let me add this, however, feelings of unresolved anger can be like storm clouds that darken and otherwise beautful clear sky. Seen at a distance, they can offer a majestic contrast to the crystilline clarity of our blue skies (they even make such things as rainbow possible!). But when they come in too close we can find ourselves at risk for bring washed away on the strom surge of emotions that can wash over us.

_________________________
"I am not a mechanism, an assembly of various sections.
And it is not because the mechanism is working wrongly, that I am ill.
I am ill because of wounds to the soul, to the deep emotional self...."
Healing D.H. Lawrence

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#145922 - 03/18/07 11:58 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: tartugas]
tartugas Offline
Board Member
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 02/11/07
Posts: 513
Loc: NYC
Hauser,

You are not a loser by any stretch of the imagination. Your strength and passion have helped a lot of us here on the boards, and it's obvious to me that you continue to struggle and strive to live a better life. Hope never dies, and on those days when the storm clouds overwhelm you, remember that every storm must pass. (And we're always here to help you bail the water and hand you an umbrella).

_________________________
"I am not a mechanism, an assembly of various sections.
And it is not because the mechanism is working wrongly, that I am ill.
I am ill because of wounds to the soul, to the deep emotional self...."
Healing D.H. Lawrence

Top
#145925 - 03/18/07 12:14 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: tartugas]
tartugas Offline
Board Member
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 02/11/07
Posts: 513
Loc: NYC
Nobby,

Thomas Aquinas said that Faith is a gift of Grace from God. This was a great consolation to me during my atheist and agnostic days in college because I could go around telling everyone that I simply hadn't received my gift yet.

All joking aside, receiving grace is at one and the same time the easiest and the hardest thing to do. (Someday I hope to understand why God always deals in paradox). No one can ever be turned away from receiving God's gifts, but to get them you have to ask him for the gift of grace, which requires, among other things a willingness to suspend your own disbelief, doubt, and mistrust. Essentially it requires that we check our ego at the door and admit that there are things that we simply cannot provide for ourselves.

Many people cannot do this, and many others who think that they have don't understand what it means to check their ego at the door (think Ted Haggard, Pat Robertson, Falwell, and many of their parishoners). I think that a good sign that you are following the true path is that you continue to wrestle and struggle with your own doubts, fears, and anger all along the way. (This of course means that I am on the right path, since I continue to approach God, be disappointed by his people or his church, and walk away again in confusion. Go me!)

I think as survivors each of us bring a different perspective to this question of grace. (You listening Fighting Scot?) I still really struggle with the idea that a child should ever have to ask their parent for the things they have a right to expect. No child should have to ask for love, protection, and nurturing from their parents, and yet that seems to be exactly what I understand the lessons of Christianity to be. Perhaps someone out there has better insight into this that me.



Edited by tartugas (03/24/07 09:12 PM)
_________________________
"I am not a mechanism, an assembly of various sections.
And it is not because the mechanism is working wrongly, that I am ill.
I am ill because of wounds to the soul, to the deep emotional self...."
Healing D.H. Lawrence

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#145930 - 03/18/07 01:04 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: tartugas]
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Tartugas, there's a quote that is attributed to St. Theresa of Avila:

Quote:
"As an old, ill nun, the foundress of Carmel was on the way
to visit one of her foundations. It was winter
and the road—if one could call it a road—was
knee deep in mud. The wagon had once again
become stuck and St. Teresa was obliged to get
out and lighten the load. Upon alighting she
fell flat in the mud. She heard God say in one
of her locutions,

“This is how I treat my
friends.”

Teresa was heard to mutter,

“Well, it's no wonder you have so few.”






Edited by Nobbynobs (03/18/07 01:14 PM)
_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#145934 - 03/18/07 01:15 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Nobbynobs]
Morning Star Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: Home
Quote:
Yeah right. Easy.


I agree totally. ;\)

_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#145935 - 03/18/07 01:23 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Nobbynobs]
Morning Star Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: Home
My Faith? That would be Love, the energy of Love, for I really believe Love energy can really make things happen for us and turn things around, if only we allow it to - It did for me.

I also call it my guide, as it flows through me guiding not just my words, but also my steps ahead.

It is a conscious being as well, you can even call it Universal Consciousness, Nature or simply God, how about that? Succinctly.


\:\)

_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#145936 - 03/18/07 01:31 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Morning Star]
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
so you're a Unitarian? ;\)



Edited by Nobbynobs (03/18/07 01:31 PM)
_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#145937 - 03/18/07 01:39 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Morning Star]
Still Offline
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I DO NOT SEE ANYONE ASKING FOR ME TO FORGIVE THEM...THUS THE TOPIC IS OFF MY FKG TABLE!!!

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#145938 - 03/18/07 01:53 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: tartugas]
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Tartugas,

I am not surprised either. I have certain fondness for its founder, and some early Christian saints, just as I have fondness for many Hindu and Sufi saints as well, though I would call them enlightened human beings, rather than just Christians or Hindus or Muslims. They belong to entire humanity, rather than a particular sect of people, just as Buddha or Tao Te Ching, Krishna or Rama, St. Theresa of Avila or St Francis of Assisi.

The labels of religion, though an easy and simple classifications for the followers makes them or rather the teachings of their founders inaccessible or scarce for so many needy people following other religions. It is only when we are ourselves able to step out of our inborn religions and pick the best of all can we rake in the full benefits of the communication era, the global village.

Who knows where the next answer to our present predicament might come from?

Many feel that if they start following the teaching of Teresa or Mohammed, or Gautama for that matter, they will not longer be true followers of their particular kind of faith. Just as many followers of those very religions confuse following just the everyday rituals of that religion will suffice or substitute for actually following the core teachings or wisdom of its founders.

Every great Master of the past has an essential piece of wisdom to pass on and help us solve this giant jigsaw puzzle called life for ourselves.



_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#145939 - 03/18/07 01:57 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Nobbynobs]
Morning Star Offline
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You like labels?

Frankly, I have no idea what that word means though I am tempted to Google it, right away. ;\)

But then I won't know everyday what exactly my faith is, what I practised today, love or fear, hate or anguish?

Labels are easy that way.

_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#145941 - 03/18/07 02:03 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Morning Star]
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I'm sorry...let the calmer Rob speak. Let's get an image of 4 mad-dogs devouring a little boy and his old-pal "soul."

Now let's replay that over and over and over again. Fast-forwarding to 34 years later...he's still being devoured.

The mad dogs??? They've all moved on. Moved-on, clearly not to my door in New Hampshire...on their knees...

...and you know what????? guys?????? Jesus aint gonna hold my non-foregiveness against me till they ask and I refuse.

Then its up to him to buy their soul out of hell...again...only if they ask.

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#145942 - 03/18/07 02:06 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Morning Star]
Nobbynobs Offline
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Originally Posted By: Morning Star
Labels are easy that way.


Actually I'm with Ste. I had you tagged as a Catholic. You don't find many people outside the Church (or inside the Church, for that matter) who appreciate St Teresa of Avila.

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#145943 - 03/18/07 02:10 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Still]
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Having and not having arise together. Difficult and easy
complement each other. Long and short contrast each other. High and low rest upon each other. Voice and sound harmonize each other. Front and back follow one another. Everything has a balance, an equal opposite, everything. No life without death. No pleasure without pain. No love without hate. Having one extreme or focusing on one denies the contrast and is unhealthy. Someone who hates too much is sick, someone who loves to much is blind. I think it's about finding a perfect balance. I also think us having that hurt itself carries a reaction. So if hate is the reaction of being abused for one. Then it is what it is and so is meant to be for them. And carries no association to god or forgivness. I agree with robbie (for myself) that forgivness isnt just something to be given. I cant forgiven in some situations. The girl sitter i can forgive. She was a young teenager at the time and she was caught in the act. I'd like to think she never did it again and feel's remorse. I can forgive her. But when someone as an adult knowingly hurts you for there sexual gratification. And is fully prepared to deny it if questioned and call that child a lier to his face. That's not forgivable. There is no remorse there. Sorry for the ramble. But this discussion i think is an importent one.



Edited by jamie' (03/18/07 02:13 PM)
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#145945 - 03/18/07 02:13 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Still]
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Those 4 mad dogs couldn't touch your old pal, as it is bright, pure and shining as ever.

It is just that we post trauma of abuse we loose connection with the brighter self - our Soul. That is why it becomes essential to initiate recovery, by first shedding the dark clouds of pains and hurt over it. To become the bright pure light that our soul is, untouched as ever by any forces of darkness.

_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

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#145946 - 03/18/07 02:18 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Morning Star]
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But don't you see my point??? Please dont let my psycho-rage cloud this point.

If they are not ASKING for forgiveness (preferably BEGGING), how is it even a topic for me to deal with?

You know...we have to ASK God to forgive us... and he does. If I'm asked by the mad-dogs...the burden is now on me (and my eternal soul). You know what??? i dont think I'm gonna get asked ;\)

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#145947 - 03/18/07 02:19 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Nobbynobs]
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And how many who appreciate her, and actually follow her teachings in their everyday life.....

That is the beauty of cosmic wisdom, that just by following our inner guidance, our intuition in our everyday choices, who knows which saints' teachings might be entering into our everyday life. Amazing grace!

_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

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#145948 - 03/18/07 02:26 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Morning Star]
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Not to get into doctrine-wars...but tain't no saints other than those owned by Jesus. I leave the statues for the Catholics.

As for grace and mercy....I should have it....but not for them...sorry.

_Prayer time_________
Sorry Lord, I'm not a very good witness for you today...but you know what's up! You know ALL!!!

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#145949 - 03/18/07 02:30 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Still]
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If you dont like Jesus, it is absolutely fine with me, as long as you are at peace with the Lord, I know you are in good hands, and you will be fine too, for that's what love does to you.

_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#145962 - 03/18/07 03:41 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Morning Star]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
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love?what does love have to do with the lord? dont tell me he loves me ,i know thats not true. i gave up on the lord not too long after i quit believing in the tooth fairy and santa clause. just another fairy tale we were told to keep us in line . all i ever felt about the lord was fear ,fear that he would punish me for the littlest thing ,fear that somehow it was my fault that he didnt save me. oh and disappointment of all those who let me down he hurt me the most.

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#145998 - 03/18/07 07:57 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: shadowkid]
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Hi all:

Very interesting topic, I have been on Male Survivor for awhile now, and nothing pushes a survivors buttons like the topic of forgiveness. I have also struggled with the tropic for many years and what to do with it. Forgiveness mean many different things to different people, so forgiveness is hard to put in a black and white definition. I feel it is up to the individual to define for them selves. My view on it is the person that is done wrong has to take responsibility for their action (thus accountability for their actions), without that there can not be forgiveness. The person who abused me (and all the other souls he hurt) has not taken responsibility for his actions and I do not expect he will ever will. Do I need to forgive him to move on with my life? Absolutely not. Do I still have the anger for the years of abuse; yes and no. Yes I am anger for what was stolen from me, but I have now learned to use that anger in a positive way and never against another person. Just my thoughts.


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#146001 - 03/18/07 08:05 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: shadowkid]
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I find it very interesting that any discussion of forgiveness very quickly become colored by tints of religious attitudes. I'd like to point out that an atheist is jut as capable of forgiving as a Buddhist monk, or a Christian pastor. In my view the act of forgiveness is a wholly secular act, regardless of who chooses to make a case for or against it.

shadow,

Thank you for sharing your feelings and your thoughts. I understand where you are coming from, and though we may have different feelings about this question, I totally respect your thoughts.

Robbie,

My friend, I understand as well your point that forgiveness should be asked for before it is given. I would like to suggest that it is possible to forgive without ever being asked for it. Such an act of generosity can be, in a small way, a proof our better nature. I still hold that, for me (and I think it can be true for others), that the power of forgiving those who have done me wrong (not just my abuser, but all who in some way harm me) is something which gives me a sense of power and control over my own life.

By forgiving I can, in fact, bring to an end a battle that I mught otherwise continue to fight with no hope of victory. By forgiving my parents for the ways in which they failed me, I can look more openly at the kinds of people they were, and owrk more effectively to ensure I don't make the same mistakes they did.

Should you forgive? That's for you to decide. I can only tell you how it has had an effect on my own way of living. I am still bitterly angry about the wrongs that were done to me. But I also recognize that who I am today, scars, warts, skills, and all has been created by what happened to me in the past. Regardless of where we come down on this issue, however, I want to stress that our opinions may distinguish us, but I hope that nothing might divide us. As a brotherhood we can all work together to help hael one another, and teach everyone about who we are and what we need.

_________________________
"I am not a mechanism, an assembly of various sections.
And it is not because the mechanism is working wrongly, that I am ill.
I am ill because of wounds to the soul, to the deep emotional self...."
Healing D.H. Lawrence

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#146002 - 03/18/07 08:11 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: tartugas]
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To tell you the truth man...I absolutely fall apart if I even THINK of forgiving the mad-dogs. I'm just not there yet. may never be...

Maybe we need to define the term "forgiveness" in tangible and commonly agreed factors???

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#146006 - 03/18/07 08:19 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Still]
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Well Robbie, it sure sounds like you and I might be working with different definitions of what forgiveness is. In my book forgiveness is a way of squaring the books between you and those who worng you internally. IT does not, EVER, mean that they are let off the hook for their crimes (which was my point in starting this thread; every person must still be held accountable, if possible, for their actions). Forgiveness doe not mean you embrace your abuser and love them with the same openness and trust that you feel for, let's say, your children.

Don't, please don't, let my opinions drive you to the edge. Is there something in what I've said, or anyone else has said that opens a door for you? Do you have some ideas for how we could, perhaps, come up with a better defintion? Is there something in this thread that does resonate in a positive way for you?

_________________________
"I am not a mechanism, an assembly of various sections.
And it is not because the mechanism is working wrongly, that I am ill.
I am ill because of wounds to the soul, to the deep emotional self...."
Healing D.H. Lawrence

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#146012 - 03/18/07 09:06 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Morning Star]
dillon Offline
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you know when jesus was getting hanged he told god to forgive theses people who where herting him (i forgive my abuser... a little)

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[url=link] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSWUYeNDwX0

New video!!

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#146013 - 03/18/07 09:14 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: dillon]
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You know what Tartugas.?.I just realized...I'm in WAY too much pain to be defining anything right now. Let's pick this one up down the road.

Still love ya brother!!! \:\)

Robbie

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#146017 - 03/18/07 10:04 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Still]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
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a : to give up resentment of or claim to requital for <forgive an insult> b : to grant relief from payment of <forgive a debt>
2 : to cease to feel resentment against (an offender) : PARDON <forgive one's enemies>
intransitive verb : to grant forgiveness
synonym see EXCUSE
why is it that in the definition its only the one forgiving who gives something up?

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#146018 - 03/18/07 10:11 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: shadowkid]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
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: to make apology for b : to try to remove blame from
2 : to forgive entirely or disregard as of trivial import : regard as excusable <graciously excused his tardiness>
3 a : to grant exemption or release to <was excused from jury duty> b : to allow to leave <excused the class>
4 : to serve as excuse for : JUSTIFY <nothing can excuse such neglect>
another word for forgivness ,excuse -to forgive entirely or disregard as of trivial import. trivial import.to describe abuse?

_________________________
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when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#146019 - 03/18/07 10:11 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: shadowkid]
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I stand defined!!! Thank you Shadow.

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#146021 - 03/18/07 10:36 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Still]
Nobbynobs Offline
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The need for forgiveness
Pope John Paul II
(from the Pope's address at the Celebration for the World Day of Peace, January 1, 2002.)

8. But what does forgiveness actually mean? And why should we forgive? A reflection on forgiveness cannot avoid these questions. Returning to what I wrote in my Message for the 1997 World Day of Peace ("Offer Forgiveness and Receive Peace"), I would reaffirm that forgiveness inhabits people's hearts before it becomes a social reality. Only to the degree that an ethics and a culture of forgiveness prevail can we hope for a "politics" of forgiveness, expressed in society's attitudes and laws, so that through them justice takes on a more human character.

Forgiveness is above all a personal choice, a decision of the heart to go against the natural instinct to pay back evil with evil. The measure of such a decision is the love of God who draws us to himself in spite of our sin. It has its perfect exemplar in the forgiveness of Christ, who on the Cross prayed: "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do" (Lk 23:34).

Forgiveness therefore has a divine source and criterion. This does not mean that its significance cannot also be grasped in the light of human reasoning; and this, in the first place, on the basis of what people experience when they do wrong. They experience their human weakness, and they want others to deal leniently with them. Why not therefore do towards others what we want them to do towards us? All human beings cherish the hope of being able to start all over again, and not remain for ever shut up in their own mistakes and guilt. They all want to raise their eyes to the future and to discover new possibilities of trust and commitment.

9. Forgiveness therefore, as a fully human act, is above all a personal initiative. But individuals are essentially social beings, situated within a pattern of relationships through which they express themselves in ways both good and bad. Consequently, society too is absolutely in need of forgiveness. Families, groups, societies, States and the international community itself need forgiveness in order to renew ties that have been sundered, go beyond sterile situations of mutual condemnation and overcome the temptation to discriminate against others without appeal. The ability to forgive lies at the very basis of the idea of a future society marked by justice and solidarity.

By contrast, the failure to forgive, especially when it serves to prolong conflict, is extremely costly in terms of human development. Resources are used for weapons rather than for development, peace and justice. What sufferings are inflicted on humanity because of the failure to reconcile! What delays in progress because of the failure to forgive! Peace is essential for development, but true peace is made possible only through forgiveness.

Forgiveness, the high road

10. Forgiveness is not a proposal that can be immediately understood or easily accepted; in many ways it is a paradoxical message. Forgiveness in fact always involves an apparent short-term loss for a real long-term gain. Violence is the exact opposite; opting as it does for an apparent short‑term gain, it involves a real and permanent loss. Forgiveness may seem like weakness, but it demands great spiritual strength and moral courage, both in granting it and in accepting it. It may seem in some way to diminish us, but in fact it leads us to a fuller and richer humanity, more radiant with the splendour of the Creator.

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#146022 - 03/18/07 10:47 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Still]
Morning Star Offline
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That was exactly the fear that kept me from forgiving, as then I will have to do something about it, as it stood so strong within me, my abusers had moved on, and died probably leaving me stranded at that same spot, reliving it again and again.

It is my responsibility to pick my self up and start all over again.

For so many years, when I didn't forgive my abusers, I also feared if I did, that without I will loose all the anger and drown in my depression, and I did for a while. Though I revived myself and lived to tell the tale.

A good and gentle definition of forgiveness that I like the most is - "Giving up the hope that the past would be any different."

In other words it is - Accepting completely our past and be willing to say - Ok I accept that all this happened to me. But that was then, and this is now!

If need be, let's remove God, especially that useless One, from all this, then let's see without any 'divine/religious intervention', it is about our past that we have to accept and move by someday bringing ourselves to say that say - It's over...and then pick our up life once.

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#146025 - 03/18/07 11:01 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Morning Star]
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Actually, in paragraphs 3 to 5 of article I posted, the Pope talks about the "human" side of forgiveness, which is why I posted it. It's pretty hard to argue against his case.

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#146029 - 03/18/07 11:29 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Nobbynobs]
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Taking in the danger to sounding too Christian I loved Pope John IIs work , especially in the eastern Europe where he started a fresh political initiative in his homeland Poland, and more importantly for the way he lead all his life.

I love the Dalai Lama and a certain Mr. Jesus for same reasons, their life speaks of their teachings more potently than any of their words.

;\)

My many apologies to anyone who got perturbed or hurt by my words, I had no intention of hurting them. I was merely trying to throw in my two pennies, and trying to clarify my own doubts in the understanding of forgiveness, as it is a life long journey.

I know how sensitive this issue can be, I deal with it every day, so am asking for your forgiveness here.


_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#146030 - 03/19/07 12:11 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Morning Star]
tartugas Offline
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I would personally like to thank everyone who has read and posted in this discussion. Forgiveness is, understandable a delicate topic with survivors, and I am proud that we have all managed to keep this dicussion open and positive, even with people who are on different sides of the issue.

I had no idea when I posted my first thoughts on this that it would so quickly become such a touchstone for so many. I hope that we can continue this, and all our dicussions in the like manner.

_________________________
"I am not a mechanism, an assembly of various sections.
And it is not because the mechanism is working wrongly, that I am ill.
I am ill because of wounds to the soul, to the deep emotional self...."
Healing D.H. Lawrence

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#146033 - 03/19/07 01:07 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: tartugas]
Still Offline
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Tartugas....you trying to stop this one?? DON'T!

I gotta tell you guys something. The girl who kept me alive when I was 12....she died on 9/11. Karen was the lead flight attendant on American Ftl 11. We grew up togehter...she knew what was happening to me. She kept me from the end!!

How do I forgive the Al Qaida who killed her if they dont ask for it and make things right???!!

Since my personal example (my rape) does not drive the point home...maybe this one will??? I dunno!!! I think there are certain elements of human survival. Maybe some people require some survival elemental traits...and others dont.

I just know that when I face an enemy that tries to do me in...I'm not gonna embrace him...I'm not gonna let my guard down...I'm clearly not inclined to forgive until they make things right. Some things can't be made right!!! EVER...

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#146050 - 03/19/07 05:05 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Still]
Morning Star Offline
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Sometimes when we are too close to our pain it becomes so large that it consumes us, at that moment nothing that anyone would say would make any sense.

The only escape then is to watch someone else’s pain, and find the courage then to survive, and better still work at it.

Personally what freed me from my pain, was listening to another story that had pain greater than mine - A boy who was trapped for three months by his abusers, and abused regularly, till he escaped. He is still alive, that was itself reason enough for me to get started on my healing work.

Here's another inspiring story about a Rwandan Holocaust survivor, you could final forgive and set herself. Read it, and then take a state on forgiveness. If she can, any one can.

Forgiving the Unforgiveable


_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

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#146064 - 03/19/07 09:15 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Morning Star]
RICK57 Offline
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Well I haven't gone away! Anyone that has read my views on this topic in its previous incarnations will know exactly where I stand.

Anyone else can have their opinion, but I am not waiting for some baptism of forgiving light - it won't happen!

I have too many important things going on in my life to even consider for one millisecond whether or not I should forgive the paedophile that groomed and sexually abused me and numerous others.

I spend my time making sure that others in this world are safe, and doing what I can to promote their happiness and contentment.

Before I made a statement that led to this lowlife paedophiles conviction in court, I wondered if there was a light on in his soul! Was there any reason that he may have done this, that he did not himself understand? There obviously wasn't, as he decided to torture myself and other complainants by denying everything and extending the damage done to us by another 17 months before he was convicted. If he had shown any sign of remorse, any concern at all about any of the survivors of his crimes, then maybe I could have shown some forgiveness.

He does not care about any of us! Let him rot!

If someone breaks my lamp (one early example in this text) I can forgive them, for that would be an accident. If someone picks my lamp up and wilfully smashes it over my head, that is a different issue & only forgiveable if there is some medical or mental issues that results in such an attack.

That's what paedophiles do see - they smash us over our heads with their desires, and they don't give a damn about the damage.

Forgive? No! Move on? Yes!

As for the religious side (seeing as how it's been brought in again). How can I take seriously that I must follow the path of those 'seriously good, religious people' that created a haven in the church for paedophiles. A haven that lasted for decades. Religious people that covered up paedophile activities & simply moved their preachers to another parish to start abusing all over again.

Suffer not the little children, let them come unto me? Hypocrisy to the extreme.

PS - it's now one year (17th March) since I was in court bringing 'my abuser' to account for his crimes. His life has not really changed in that time (suspended sentence because the crimes were historical).

Of the 3 of us that went against him in court - 'this elderly gentleman answering for indiscretions from long ago'.

I have varying thoughts about the old bastard - none of them feature fluffy kittens and cute little puppies. The good thing is that he is no longer in my mind all day / every day. He pops up now ang again, but has no control now.

Witness number 2 - see him quite regulalry, but he always looks sad.

Witness number 3 - well he was highly upset on the last day in court, because our overly politically correct judiciary were obviously more concerned about the bloody paedophile than they were about us. Witness number 3 is now a virtual recluse.

See we only wanted REAL JUSTICE - tell them that they must forgive to their faces, and I don't believe the answer would come in words.

We do not have to forgive ourselves, for we did nothing wrong, even though like many I did blame myself for what happened.

I am off to work shortly and will do the best that I can. I am proud of what I have achieved despite the paedophile. That is the best way that I can forgive myself - being successful. That way I can show the paedophile my middle finger and tell him to pivot.

Best wishes ...Rik

*Still in the hang them and flog them brigade & no apologies for that!

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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#146070 - 03/19/07 09:35 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: RICK57]
Still Offline
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Fkn right!!!

I'm SO sorry to hear about the suspended sentence!

THAT'S what relying on the justice system will do for us gents!!

Did you happen to see the little video of Florida justice killing a boy?

NOW... do we forgive the failed justice system????

_________________________
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The Aftermath Video

The Water Buffalo Song

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#146074 - 03/19/07 10:17 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Still]
tartugas Offline
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Robbie,

Oh no I am in no way try to shut down this topic. The lessons I am learning from everyone are truly inspiriing and helping me to further refine my own thinking on this very difficult and poignant issue.

I hope that everyone will understand that my writings are not attempts at converting anyone to my point of view. I am not a preacher, merely a fellow survivor who is using this place to rediscover my own voice as a person, and as a writer. My posts are my attempts to formulate and figure out my own thinking about many aspects of my own path to recovery. I have been tremendously uplifted (and surprised) to hear from many people here that my work has been helpful to them. I promise I'll continue to do my work and share it with you all, not because I feel an obligation to anyone else, but because I feel an obligation to myself to continue my own healing.

Rik,

No apologies necessary my friend. I am just as outraged at the failure of your justice system to hold your abuser accountable as you are. Your ability to move forward in your own life is commendable, as is the stand you took to try get this person held responsible for wht he did. Sadly, the jury's attitude shows just how much work we as a community have to do to get this evil understood for the life destroying crime that it is.

I also wanted to comment on the light (pardon the pun) you shed on my earlier example about a friend who breaks your lamp. You are correct to point out that the example I used relies on the unspoken assumption that the damage was caused by an accident. However, I think the power of forgiveness can be even more clearly highlighted when I am attacked.

To tie this into an earlier thread, I think that the crime at stake is not assault, but robbery. What the person who attacks me steals from me is a sense of inner peace (not to sound too zen about it). Why does he steal it? Well for many reasons (none of which constitute a justifiable excuse), but at the core I get attacked when someone seeks to take my own sense of peace away to replenish some lack of peace in themselves.

For me, I hold that repairing the damage done, and replacing what was stolen from me take greater precedence than holding those who have done me wrong accountable. Why? For two reasons -

First, after being attacked by someone, it seems to me unlikely that they will freely offer to replace what was taken. Therefore it falls on me to replace what was taken from my soul. In my way of thinking, this assumption and acceptance of the damage done, and the effort I make to replace what was taken from me constitute forgiveness. It does not, in ANY WAY absolve my abuser of his guilt, rather I choose to accept that he will never offer to replace what he took from me.

Secondly, I think that I will be a more powerful warrior when I have learned how to protect my own sense of self from the attacks of everyday life. I can be a more effective champion for the rights of all of us, and work harder to get society to change its attitudes about how significant the damage done to us has been now that I have done the first stages of healing; now that I have begun to repair and replace what was stolen from me.

The more and more I think about these issues, the more I begin to feel certain that, in some way, this is becoming a life's work for me. Not merely healing myself, but standing up and fighting for all of us. As you so poignantly described Rik, there is far too much ignorance and far too much acceptence of the criminals in our society. This is what constitutes the failure of our justice system (and yours in England too) in my opinion. It's not that the laws are weak, it's that people seem to willing to let abusers walk away without holding them acountable for their crimes. Don't get me wrong, I very strongly believe in the importance of "innocent until proven guilty", but I think that, in the case of abusers, the system has not yet learned how to appropriately deal with these monsters.

_________________________
"I am not a mechanism, an assembly of various sections.
And it is not because the mechanism is working wrongly, that I am ill.
I am ill because of wounds to the soul, to the deep emotional self...."
Healing D.H. Lawrence

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#146081 - 03/19/07 12:02 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: tartugas]
Morning Star Offline
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A discussion becomes unfruitful for all, when it enters a familiar territory, when it starts resembling less of a discussion but more of a verbal war zone. Where each side tries to convince the other one so hard to give up their viewpoint, that insecurities rise up, and soon we forget that we have come here to heal ourselves and not to convince another survivor of personal viewpoint.

As always there is time to let go of a viewpoint or a discussion - when it is not longer serves the purpose of empowerment.

If it works for someone, then who I am to convince someone otherwise?

Ultimately forgives or not, like healing is between a person and his God. I don't picture any where. After all it is a personal journey for us all. We seek what we need at the moment, and we get it too. As that is what the generous Universe does, each time.

And then it comes to me, I too have taken decades to reach here. We all have to bear our cross, no consolation for any one.



_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#146082 - 03/19/07 12:05 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: tartugas]
Nobbynobs Offline
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Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Quote:
but I think that, in the case of abusers, the system has not yet learned how to appropriately deal with these monsters.


I think the justice system is doing fine. The problem is not that the system doesn't know how to deal with child molesters, it's that it is very difficult to prosecute any crime against children because of the lack of evidence that is acceptable in court. Children make poor witnesses, and psychological damage is very hard to prove in court.

That's what makes forgiveness such a necessity. We are not going to stop child molesters by tracking them down and arresting them. It simply doesn't work. We are going to stop child abuse by working towards communities where abuse doesn't occur, where children are supported and protected. And that sort of community can't exist without forgiveness and understanding.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#146084 - 03/19/07 01:24 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Nobbynobs]
tartugas Offline
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Morning Star,

I'm saddened to hear you say that. I don't think that we're entering into unhealthy territory at all. As a matter of fact, it seems to me that any time any of us speak our minds here we are engaged in something incredibly healthy. Even if we feel the need to scream, rant, rave, or cry out in pain. It's far better for us to share these feelings here than to keep them bottled up or to let them out in other arenas where our feelings might be overwhelming to others and misinterpreted.

The success or failure of your journey will never be measured in how many people you win over to your point of view, but by how far you come in your own personal healing. I have greatly valued all of your contributions to this discussion thus far, and especially been grateful for your willingness to stand up for your beliefs in a non confrontational way.

I hope that you wil choose to continue being a part of our discussion here. You have no way of knowing just how many people your words and thoughts touch. And if someone disagrees with you, then I would encourage you to open your heart and your mind to their point of view and accept that we need not all be on the same page, but we do need to respect and support everyone's need to stand up and be heard.

_________________________
"I am not a mechanism, an assembly of various sections.
And it is not because the mechanism is working wrongly, that I am ill.
I am ill because of wounds to the soul, to the deep emotional self...."
Healing D.H. Lawrence

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#146085 - 03/19/07 01:25 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Nobbynobs]
Morning Star Offline
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Registered: 12/21/04
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For the same reason a Peace March works far better than a March Against war.

_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#146087 - 03/19/07 01:34 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: tartugas]
Morning Star Offline
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Registered: 12/21/04
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Tartugas,

There is difference between stating my truth and trying to converting another’s into mine. I never realized when I drifted into the latter.

Truth is always personal, so I shouldn't feel the need to convince anyone of it, as that itself creates friction.

When I try to convince someone, I am already starting on a weak footing. Why not allow someone else the same space and trust their wisdom to reach life conclusions as I have. So I needed to back out and access my own strength and need to convince. A viewpoint no matter how right or strong is just that - a viewpoint; and let's not start wars of viewpoints here. We are all here to heal and make peace, not war.

Aggression always increases aggression, no matter where we apply it, it never brings in peace and harmony.

Here, I got to test the strength of my conviction in my beliefs. If I am such a firm 'believer' why don’t I rather pray for other children here. I got through it not through advice or judgment, but through prayer, and grace.

May No child remain unhealed.
May we all receive grace,
May we all be able to offer it
to those have hurt and betrayed us
in the past.
May we able to start afresh today,
and live the life choose for ourselves,
May this be our prayer everyday here.



_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#146088 - 03/19/07 01:49 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Morning Star]
Still Offline
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Registered: 02/16/07
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This is the problem with "taking positions" in a mode of negotiations. It becomes a tug-o-war. Here, at MS, we ought not be in "negotiation mode." Rather, here at MS, let's be in learning, understanding, and consoling modes...and just know that we will have radically differing opinions on this topic and many others accociated with our CSA.

And just to throw a wrench into the works....I realized today that I can forgive my Dad for kicking the shnik out of me during those very bad years. (did I just say that out loud?)

_________________________
Wishing You Were Here!

The Aftermath Video

The Water Buffalo Song

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#146093 - 03/19/07 03:18 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Still]
Nobbynobs Offline
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Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: Robbie Brown
This is the problem with "taking positions" in a mode of negotiations. It becomes a tug-o-war. Here, at MS, we ought not be in "negotiation mode." Rather, here at MS, let's be in learning, understanding, and consoling modes...and just know that we will have radically differing opinions on this topic and many others accociated with our CSA.


Speaking for myself, that some of the guys here disagree with my admittedly strong opinions on forgiveness does not make me love them one iota less. And my love for them gives me the strength to disagree with them. One day Rik and I will show the rest of you guys the great conversations that we have had over PM, but only after he admits that I am right. ;\)

Quote:
And just to throw a wrench into the works....I realized today that I can forgive my Dad for kicking the shnik out of me during those very bad years. (did I just say that out loud?)


Wonderful. Congratulations. You are making some great gains, my friend.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#146107 - 03/19/07 05:30 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: pietie]
reality2k4 Offline
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Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Forgiveness is something I used to save ME.
Torturing yourself with past hurt is just feeding the guilt and all teh other emotions that can only hurt yourself.
Taking out their guilt on myself has taken toll on me, and not them so I chose to forgive.

My older brother mentally abused me for most of my growing years, and I constantly had to fight what he said about me to my friends.
I know he will never admit it, but he could not understand that I was my dads favorite son, only because I did everything in the house and even cooked the meals etc.

He knows how pathetic he was in the past, but I am prepared to forgive him, because he is not going to admit the abuse even though he knows he did wrong.
That is up to him, he cannot be the same man as me or my brother nor my sister who he also abused.

I could have got through sexual abuse if he had been a better brother and protect me rather than make me feel little.
When I was fighting SA in my head, I had no resources to deal with him calling me a queer at school, and all the other things he did to belittle me.

We need to congratulate the little boys who got you through, and not dwell on what could be,

ste


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#146129 - 03/19/07 08:19 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: reality2k4]
RICK57 Offline
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Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
Please don't anyone hold back on their views. I believe it's very good that we all say what we want on this topic! Remember many of us were silent for too long - this is not the place for us to be silent. I strongly believe in my opinion, but it doesn't mean that I don't think anyone else should have a different one.

Some of the comments do wind me up, as I know mine equally wind others up! That's quite healthy actually - they call it debate.

If anyone chooses to forgive one of 'those people' that has caused us irrepairable damage, fine! That is your choice. I choose not to, and nobody will ever make me think differently.

The best way to make communities safe (in my opinion) is to ensure that paedophiles get the message that they are in danger of spending extensive amounts of time in prison. The judiciary need to make sure that they receive that message. Children and all 'responsible adults' need to be educated so that they can give children the ammunition to deal with potential paedophile threats (good touch / bad touch etc). That is the best way that we can prevent more victims/survivors coming here in future years. Wouldn't it be wonderful if this site was eventually not required, because paedophiles could no longer be in a position to apply their desires. I don't suppose you could stop the crazy ones that kidnap and attack kids, but we should be able to stop the groomers!

We are very much aware in the UK that we are extremely short of prison spaces. To give you an example of what the judiciary is like, we have an elderly judge that recently said: 'If we keep sending people to prison for life, the prisons will eventually be full of geriactric murderers. Only really bad murderers should be sent to prison for life'. You can all guess where I'd love to send that silly old sod (that was a strain to be polite). I'd like to ask him what he considers to be 'a good murder'. See we don't have to forgive the abusers, because the judiciary do it for us.

The killers of a young boy (very small for his age and only around 12 when he was murdered) that was drugged and raped then murdered in a paedophile orgy, received what appeared to be reasonable sentences if they had actually served them. Parole meant that they were let out to continue their perverted activities.

And back to the anolagy of the lamp! Well you can replace a lamp! You can just go to the store and buy a new one - it might not be exactly the same, but it will light up your room just the same way that the old one did! Childhood - you cannot go to a store and pick a bag of 'formative years' off the shelf! You cannot ask for a replacement childhood to be downloaded into your brain as the latest piece of software. You cannot ask for your identity back - once stolen, it's gone! Forever! You have to create a new one at a time when your circuitry is damaged.

You can as I stated earlier fight back and be successful in your life! That is the best revenge we can all have! It's difficult to achieve but that is my forgiveness to myself (and it took a long time)! I do not wish to forgive James Fowler, even if the courts thought that they had the right to do so! Sod him and sod the judiciary!

Differing opinions - yes Nobby and Myself have had some disagreements on this subject (maybe we are both quite firmly in the opposite camps on this topic that others hear would think we'd have a fight if we met). Adam is pretty much of the same opinion as myself. We thought Nobby was quite mad with his overriding desire to forgive, as it was the last thing that we would ever do.

It may surprise you to know, that although we disagree strongly on this topic, we have all agreed that we could sit down and have a pint or more together. Nobby would buy the first round though, because he knows we are right!

Best wishes ..Rik

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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#146134 - 03/19/07 08:26 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: RICK57]
tartugas Offline
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Rik,

Well I hope that I might be allowed to join the discussion at the pub the next time I make it across the pond. And just to keep things civil, I'd be happy to get the first round for everyone.

I really like the counterpoints you are bringing in to the analogy. You are absolutely right, one cannot replace lost years. But I do think that the skills which we could have developed and joy we could have experienced in those stolen years can be experienced later in life. Will it be the same? Of course not, but that does not necessarily mean that the experience with be qualitatively different.

_________________________
"I am not a mechanism, an assembly of various sections.
And it is not because the mechanism is working wrongly, that I am ill.
I am ill because of wounds to the soul, to the deep emotional self...."
Healing D.H. Lawrence

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#146141 - 03/19/07 08:55 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: tartugas]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
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Posts: 2437
heh i couldnt stay out of this!lol two things strike me as unbelievable that children make poor witnesses, and we can have safe communities with rehabilated perps living among us ,how do you get this totaly safe comunity? i ask this would you feel safer if you had 10 pedophiles living on your block ,if their victims told you they had forgiven them ? would you be able to ignor what they did? forgivness might very wll help you but while your forgiving him he will be stalking his next victim . can you forgive him for any kids he hurts after you forgive him.live and let live is great untill you include the animals in it. on the children as witnesses part,it dont make a damn bit of difference how good the witness is ,when deals are made outside the courtroom , in the intrest of saving money,or for other reasons, i sat in that court for 3 days ,said things you dont even want to think ,got accused of being the one to blame ,lawyers in my face making me cry,being told to look at people when you know you cant ,being told to speak up when you can barely talk . kids are not good witnesses? people cried with me there and it didnt mean shit!it wasnt my fault he only got 7 years,of does forgiving make you think thats enough for what he did ,im sorry i didnt mean to hi jack this post ,but i needed to say this. i was 13 ,but i think i was a damn good witness

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#146145 - 03/19/07 09:06 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: shadowkid]
FormerTexan Offline
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Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11047
Loc: Denver, CO
I don't know that a totally safe community is possible. Even if the perp was forgiven by those he/she abused, there is still a huge chasm of a difference between forgiveness and trust. Forgiving someone in this context does not require me to trust them again.

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#146149 - 03/19/07 09:38 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Still]
Morning Star Offline
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Robbie, Now that's some good news. Keep it coming!

_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#146155 - 03/19/07 10:37 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Morning Star]
tartugas Offline
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Registered: 02/11/07
Posts: 513
Loc: NYC
Shadow,

I feel the need to again clarify that, in my book at least, my forgiving someone for the wrongs they have done me is a totally separate issue from holding someone accountable for their crimes. Just because I forgive someone does not in any way excuse them from being held liable and does not free them from facing the just punishment they deserve.

Forgiveness is a personal matter between me and those who have done me wrong. I can choose to forgive but still push just as hard as humanly possible to see an abuser put in jail for what he or she may have done. I simply don't understand why one must negate the other. Likewise, it is certainly possible for someone to be sent to prison and not be forgiven by his or her victims.

I certainly won't force my opinion about the value of forgiveness on anyone, but I stand firm on the point that forgiveness and accountability are two separate things, neither one requiring or negating the other.

_________________________
"I am not a mechanism, an assembly of various sections.
And it is not because the mechanism is working wrongly, that I am ill.
I am ill because of wounds to the soul, to the deep emotional self...."
Healing D.H. Lawrence

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#146158 - 03/19/07 10:45 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: tartugas]
tartugas Offline
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I would also make the argument that, the presence of pedoskenes (I prefer this term as opposed to pedophile) in any community does not necessarily make that community more or less safe. Every community, no matter where it is, faces its own threats, from inside and outside the community. We will never have any community that is totally free from any form of threat, as long as death and suffering exist in this world. A better judge of the safety of a community is not how many bad people are found within it, but rather how many good people.

I feel that what makes a community safe is not extermination or expulsion of threatening people or influences. You simply can't get rid of every threat. It seems to me that makes a community safe is the combined work of it's members to uplift, educate, and assist one another to meet whatever threats may come along. No one parent can ever be expected to fully prepare and protect a child, however a whole community of willing, capable, and understanding adults who will agree to work together to make a better place for each other will be able to do a much better job of protecting itself.

_________________________
"I am not a mechanism, an assembly of various sections.
And it is not because the mechanism is working wrongly, that I am ill.
I am ill because of wounds to the soul, to the deep emotional self...."
Healing D.H. Lawrence

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#146173 - 03/19/07 11:48 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: tartugas]
Morning Star Offline
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Tartugas,

You are so right there, there is no versus between accountability and forgiveness, they ARE separate things.

I believe that is why people confuse the two, and stay away from the latter.

Our forgiveness only frees us, from our prejudices and life long grudges and pain, but the abusers are still held accountable by the Universe. No is absolved from the law of Karma, no one.

Forgiveness doesn't mean excusing someone off; we only excuse ourselves from the energy dynamics that perpetuates between the victim and abuser.

The power imbalance that was once created by abuse of power by the abuser can be shift back in the favour of the victim, once again, and that can happen in two ways, one you do the same to the abuser, the classical eyes for an eye situation, which explains the active and passive rage within everyone who doesn’t forgive, as they want to get even, someday. So anyone who shifts that power balance ever again away from them, becomes an effigy of their abuser, and once again bears the brunt of their anger which was reserved for their abusers and the deep hidden rage at their own inability to get even with their abusers.

This what makes the second tool, forgiveness such a healthy and potent option, as it not only shifts the power balance back in the favour of the victim, it also gives us the freedom to choose a lifestyle that free from the constant feelings of prejudice and getting even with who ever shifts that power balance in our life, away from us.

We keep looking for people who are out there to ‘get’ us or hurt us in any way. Slowly being constantly vigilant tires us out, and our body, mind and spirit and our energy system exhausts itself. As it can keep on the fighting mode for only so long.

That is why forgiveness is considered an act of ultimate power. And sure enough it feels powerful once you have forgiven, as we have reclaimed our power back, then you no longer get rattled or filled with rage or bitterness, by just the sight or thought of abuser.


_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#146213 - 03/20/07 10:25 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Morning Star]
jamie' Offline
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Karma is something i dont believe in. There is knowone in this universe behind the scenes pushing buttons, righting wrongs and the like. But there is the enevitability that bad things will happen unspicific to you or anything you've done...its called the balance which i spoke of a few pages back which i assumed was ignored, the point being people themselves by there own efforts have to make things happen, right the wrongs.

I cant count the occasions i've heard people let things slide and then say in a karma like belief...well he'll get his. There is no cure for perversion. Aslong as perverts and children co-exist there will be rapes, molestations and murders. There will always be that immediate threat. Our laws and systems are shit, and the punishments perverts get are usually minimal...ontop of that they spend there prison stay in PC (protective custody) where they dont have to fear the other inmates who dont take kindly to pedophiles. The victims are put in the spot light, questioned most likely not believed, put threw an emotional storm then sent home to try and patch there lives together and try to live a normal life. And a few years later the abuser is released unscathed and most likely a recidivist but more careful. The amber alert is as good as it will most likely get. And it is good and has helped here. When you see the alert flashing people become conscious of who there looking at, or for. But the justice system and societies prevention of abuse will continue to look bleak. There should be the natural law of what's right is right. You catch a pervert you break his legs and cut of his thing. No PC prison stay-vacation. But the way it is you yourself would be a criminal for protecting your own or punishing those who hurt them, or you.




Edited by jamie' (03/20/07 10:32 AM)
_________________________
No matter how long and dark the night is, Or the fear and hurt that it can bring, there will always be a dawn, where we can push the past aside and move forward with hope.

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#146214 - 03/20/07 10:29 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: tartugas]
jamie' Offline
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Loc: Ont, Can
If some people can forgive those and the things that were done to them then more power to you. I cannot, its not ok. I cant pardon that and the act of power is that i show an incredible act of restraint in not expressing my rage to the world. Or by not finding those who've misused me soaking them in gasoline then setting them on fire. Its an act of power to not take your life even though this one has been so unkind and seems so sure to be fruitless(excluding those with children as thats a reason to live). The thing is i did not ask for this burden. I do not want to feel these things or be this way. I did my best to bury everything and forget which is impossible and the mere idea of forgiving hit's a nerve. And this is for forgiveness which isnt open for interpretation its states its definition quite clearly. But for those who can forgive, great. Holding someone accountable is something else as was stated, Seperate things. And i agree with the latter.

_________________________
No matter how long and dark the night is, Or the fear and hurt that it can bring, there will always be a dawn, where we can push the past aside and move forward with hope.

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#146221 - 03/20/07 11:36 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: jamie']
Morning Star Offline
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Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
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The law of Karma states that "For every action there is an equal an opposite reaction". And that's exactly what the Newton's third law of Motion also suggests.

One is pure science, another pure philosophy. Pick what you like, or not, its all up to you.



May be that is what science is - spirituality applied to everyday life, just as spirituality presents what science in essence aims to take us – to a better life.


_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#146222 - 03/20/07 11:46 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Morning Star]
jamie' Offline
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That's what you decided to pick out?.....bravo.

The point of that being you can rely on karma or you can make things happen. Karma isnt spicific. You go out and steal a TV its not garenteed your getting cought. Or that you yourself will be stolen from. There may be no justice at all in that situation.





Edited by jamie' (03/20/07 11:47 AM)
_________________________
No matter how long and dark the night is, Or the fear and hurt that it can bring, there will always be a dawn, where we can push the past aside and move forward with hope.

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#146227 - 03/20/07 12:10 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: jamie']
tartugas Offline
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MaleSurvivor
Registered: 02/11/07
Posts: 513
Loc: NYC
Jaime,

I hear your anger and frustration, and I share much of it. Personally I'd like to see every male abuser castrated (not sure yet what to do with women who abuse children), even though I recognize that such a punishment would not necessarily address the underlying psychosis at play. But, as much as I feel that that is an appropriate punishment, I doubt very strongly that my views will carry the day in a democratic society where the innocence of the accused is an unalienalbe right.

And I think that that is how is should be. The purpose of a justice system is to allow us as a group to rise above the barbarity of "eye for an eye" thinking. If we cannot move past our personal desires for vengence then we are left to fight out endless struggles that will never find a peaceful resolution. Look at the history of Northern Ireland, Palestine, Iraq. The cycle of vengence in all these places holds bak the tide of civilzation, peace, and prosperity for all.

I understand that a necessary step in breaking the cycle of vengence is for the victim to accept the reality of the grievous harm done to them. Not accept in the sense of passively believe that they deserved it, or were too weak to protect themselves (we all know the damage this kind of thinking causes) but accept in the sense of facing and openly acknowledging the hurt and the injuries we carry, and then taking on the responsibility to do the hard work of healing.

This necessarily means that we, the victims, must shoulder a burden that is unjust, that is not of our own creation, and that hurts like hell. It sucks. It makes me angry and sad adn feelings of vengence do flash across my eyes at times. But I feel very strongly that a more powerful response than simply looking to give back the damage done to me is to stop the hurting and break the cycle of vengence. This is at the heart of forgiveness, for me. If I am strong enough to survive this long, I'm certainly strong enough to heal. And so are you, so is everyone here.

Again, let me be clear. Forgiveness is a matter between me and my abusers. There is still a system in place (imperfect though it may be) and a call to hold those who abuse us accountable. To forgive does not mean to absolve the guilty of their guilt. So long as the stain of their sins colors my soul, they will carry the weight of their crime on theirs.

_________________________
"I am not a mechanism, an assembly of various sections.
And it is not because the mechanism is working wrongly, that I am ill.
I am ill because of wounds to the soul, to the deep emotional self...."
Healing D.H. Lawrence

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#146231 - 03/20/07 12:48 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: jamie']
Morning Star Offline
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Registered: 12/21/04
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ok then, next time underline the text you want us to pick.
Or we will pick whats relevant to us, and befits a reply.

_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#146232 - 03/20/07 12:52 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: tartugas]
jamie' Offline
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You know in mexico child abuse is rampent. Alot of regular people with families are well aware and fed up. They wont tolerate it. A couple of CIA agents were taken picture of some men near a childrens school yard and the locals found out thinking it was of the children and got together (unaware that they were agents and not being pervert) and beat them to within an inch of there lives. They took that other inch by setting the pair on fire. This was a couple years ago i believe. Now thats a big mistake. But had they been men abusing children i'd agree with it. There should be special treatment for perverts. And our justice system makes things nice and comfterble for the abusers. Mob mantality is primative and instinctual.

I understand what your saying and i agree with your healing points. And i understand forgiveness and accountability are seperate issues. But brutality sends a loud messege. If such brutality were carried out in nations like the USA with the government cracking down on the child abuse issues unlike mexico it would be have a much more successful effect. This is just thought and i realize this will never be.

For women it would be a clitorectomy with childrens scissors.

MS: You reply to what you like. It just came off confrontational and trivial to address the word's rather then the bottom line. It's like reading the words rather then reading what there saying. Do what you do.



Edited by jamie' (03/20/07 12:57 PM)
_________________________
No matter how long and dark the night is, Or the fear and hurt that it can bring, there will always be a dawn, where we can push the past aside and move forward with hope.

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#146245 - 03/20/07 02:26 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: jamie']
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
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bottom line here is we disagree with forgiving and as you said we have every right to ,please dont make the discussion seem like its about who is the better person .i have me opinion as do others like jamie ,i feel that the choice i made is the right one for me ,i dont try to convert you to my way of thinking ,dont try to convert me to yours.thats what i sense in this post we are seen as those poor angry kids who will never get over what happened,dont feel sorry for me cause i wont forgive and i promise i wont feel sorry for you cause you did. accountability to me IS AN EYE FOR AN EYE .and the world cant get any more blind than it is now can it? saying what they did is forgivable just adds to that blindness

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#146249 - 03/20/07 02:33 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: shadowkid]
Nobbynobs Offline
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Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
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Quote:
If such brutality were carried out in nations like the USA with the government cracking down on the child abuse issues unlike mexico it would be have a much more successful effect. This is just thought and i realize this will never be.


Wow, am I glad you aren't in politics. The last thing you want is your government being allowed to brutalise citizens. All the abusers would just become cops.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#146255 - 03/20/07 03:01 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Nobbynobs]
jamie' Offline
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I dont think you deciphered the differences i was speaking of. I was talking about mob mantality added to the fact the government would be cracking down.

Cop's already are abusers and government already dose brutalize its citizens. This is nothing new. You living in toronto should know that.

If i am lesser to anyone for these beliefs then so be it. I read that people wanted honesty and so this is mine.

Some more honesty is i cant fucking stand when religion enters discussions like this. It ostricizes those who dont follow it and it holds a preaching tone that you arent part of the plan or in good grace less you follow along, god, religion, spirituality ect dose not relate to ones personal view of forgiveness of another for the kinds of things we are speaking of. I realize this is from a page or so ago but i cought up on the reading this afternoon. And as its been established i dont think anyone knocks anyone else for there views on that. Whether forgiveness is needed or right/wrong ect.



Edited by jamie' (03/20/07 03:04 PM)
_________________________
No matter how long and dark the night is, Or the fear and hurt that it can bring, there will always be a dawn, where we can push the past aside and move forward with hope.

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#146288 - 03/20/07 06:59 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: shadowkid]
tartugas Offline
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Registered: 02/11/07
Posts: 513
Loc: NYC
Originally Posted By: shadowkid
bottom line here is we disagree with forgiving and as you said we have every right to ,please dont make the discussion seem like its about who is the better person .i have me opinion as do others like jamie ,i feel that the choice i made is the right one for me ,i dont try to convert you to my way of thinking ,dont try to convert me to yours.thats what i sense in this post we are seen as those poor angry kids who will never get over what happened,dont feel sorry for me cause i wont forgive and i promise i wont feel sorry for you cause you did. accountability to me IS AN EYE FOR AN EYE .and the world cant get any more blind than it is now can it? saying what they did is forgivable just adds to that blindness


Shadow,

I apologise for making you feel that I was trying to cop a superior attitude. I assure that I do not think I am a better person than you, or anyone here. As I said a couple of pages ago, I'm not a preacher, I'm a writer. And my posts here are a way of me expressing my inner thoughts and working out my own feelings on these matters. I totally respect that we are on opposite sides of the fence on this issue, but I hope you will permit me to continue posting reponses and contrary points of view without feeling that I am trying to convert you or label you as mistaken.

When people can freely diagree and make the best possible arguments for their own beliefs, then we engage in a constructive dialogue. We are not tearing one another down, we are trying to build one another up intellectually. I think it's an essential part of the learning process. I appreciate every single thing everyone has brought to the discussion, and I will gladly say that I have been made wiser for it.

_________________________
"I am not a mechanism, an assembly of various sections.
And it is not because the mechanism is working wrongly, that I am ill.
I am ill because of wounds to the soul, to the deep emotional self...."
Healing D.H. Lawrence

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#146311 - 03/20/07 10:25 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: tartugas]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
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Posts: 2437
tar i really didnt think anyone was acting superior ,it just seems like people think its sad that i cant forgive ,this is a good post and i agree totaly that we need to agree to disagree but we should still be able to hold a conversation on the subject. i understand that those who forgive find it helps and as friends they only want to offer what helped them , maybe this is one way i let my anger get in the way of my understanding. i get angry at what happened and maybe it comes out in these kind of posts,if so thats one more reason to not forgive him ,because he even made it hard for me to accept help when its offered.

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#146315 - 03/20/07 10:31 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: shadowkid]
jamie' Offline
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Your post came out of left wing. And the way you explained yourself above it makes alot of sense. Hell after reading my last one the written tone makes it appear as though i'm pissed off. And i suppose i was slightly. This is a senstive topic and when you start thinking about things related to the topic you start thinking about past incidents and that effects people. Its good to have these topics and discussions even though they can be heated.



Edited by jamie' (03/20/07 10:32 PM)
_________________________
No matter how long and dark the night is, Or the fear and hurt that it can bring, there will always be a dawn, where we can push the past aside and move forward with hope.

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#146316 - 03/20/07 10:41 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: tartugas]
Morning Star Offline
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Posts: 1124
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After taking decades to learn to forgive and still learning, I have noticed that once we learn to forgive power struggles end in our life, as they have ended within.

And until we learn to forgive completely and get the internal power imbalance straightened out, we simmer all day long, waiting to take revenge, and thus stay victim all our live, and thus tend to get into power struggles at all times, and in all areas of life.

Even sundry incidences seem to take away our power from us, like an opposing viewpoint or choice make by someone close, because internal we are still feeling same powerlessness as we felt when abused as child.

So we try to fix it on the outside, while forgetting that the real source of this power imbalance lies unattended within us. When we get fed up of trying to control external situations around us, and exhaust ourselves we realize that may be the source of all this lies within, that is when we often wake up to fix our life within, till then fighting, anger and control are the only ways in which we can feel powerful.

Aggression always is a mark of weak person, and every one knows that it is a mask that we often wear when we feel weak inside or hurt. But the true sign of a power-balanced or centered person is calm assertiveness.

As long we stay depended on other people and external situation to give us some suggestion of our power, we shall always feel weak and incessantly when power will get swayed away from us, as what’s within gets reflected out naturally as world is but a reflection who we think we are within, privately, individually and by our selves, and if we believe that we have no power, life is only reflect that until we make efforts to change it.

Some raging victims become raging activists or even social vigilantes which is all right, but in the end all this internal rage destroys their immune and blood circulation system, as higher levels of ‘cortisol’, body's the stress hormone, leads to blood pressure, diabetes, immunity disorders, bone disorders and in some cases cancer, which is all doubly sad, as not only did the abuser destroyed a childhood, we allowed him to also kill us, eventually.

As long that we are simmering inside for our abusers to get killed by us, let remember that it is he who is killing us slowly instead. As they say – “He who angers you conquers you.”

I remember Norman Sealy, a noted writer who works infield of internal medicine once said that after of his 20 minute long Forgiveness workshops one of his participants who was dying with cancer; literally walked out cured.

As something clicked inside her during the meditation and she said to herself, “Those bastards destroyed my childhood, now I won’t let them kill me.”

And thus she cured herself.

All forgiveness begins with self forgiveness and we can forgive others only when we have learned to forgive ourselves of our past mistakes; as we treat others only the way we treat ourselves.
……………………………………….

A clip of that Norman Sealy discussion


_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#146317 - 03/20/07 10:50 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Morning Star]
jamie' Offline
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Registered: 03/09/07
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Jesus christ man. That just paranoided me out.

_________________________
No matter how long and dark the night is, Or the fear and hurt that it can bring, there will always be a dawn, where we can push the past aside and move forward with hope.

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#146405 - 03/21/07 05:36 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: jamie']
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
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lets not get crazy k?my anger is gonna give me cancer!!!? maybe keeping it inside like the forgivers do might cause cancer,my anger is right here on the outside its not eating me alive slowly ,this is getting crazy! self forgivness?what the hell did i do? weak? weak is giving up ,giving in ,forgiving .saying its ok might work for you m s ,but to me its just denying the anger you have inside,

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#146465 - 03/22/07 12:02 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: shadowkid]
Morning Star Offline
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Now that's as crazy one can get.

You can do all the talking here but your body knows your truth, and speaks it too. You must have heard of the saying - Your Biography becomes your Biology. Its true.

_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#146471 - 03/22/07 12:24 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Morning Star]
jamie' Offline
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Did i just make up the word parinoided?. lol

Hell, i'm an angry person with lots of rage and yadda yadda yadda. I dig the at peace zen thing that some of these other people are talking about. I dont like the anger, i hate that i hate so much. And i do appreciate the insight and advice. I just dont dig the preaching. Not pointing any fingers.

And i really dont want any cancer or any of the stuff mentioned. And i know that anger carries side effects. I have some. So maybe what MS is saying is true.

_________________________
No matter how long and dark the night is, Or the fear and hurt that it can bring, there will always be a dawn, where we can push the past aside and move forward with hope.

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#146490 - 03/22/07 03:17 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: jamie']
Morning Star Offline
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I think the real issue here is not, whether forgiveness or accountability are right or wrong issues. The real issue here is, whether they work or not, in aiding a survivor lead a better life.

And since it has worked for some of us, with a similar ‘ailment’ there is no harm in trying it.

Isn’t that what we are all here for, to find new ways to live, and get empowered?

And, if in a week, ten days, it doesn’t cut for you, then you can always drop it, and get mad and angry, all over again. ;\)



_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#146504 - 03/22/07 08:50 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Morning Star]
tartugas Offline
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To chime in with ms on this, I have found that takng things in small doses often helps me. For instance, instead of wholesale changing my attitude of self-abuse and negation all at one blow (which always proved to be an impossible task for me in the past), I would try instead to accept everything positive that anyone told me as true for an hour or a day, and just try to watch how it affected me.

Similarly, instead of trying to forgive one's abuser, which to me is the equivalent of a 5 year old trying to write "War and Peace", perhaps try forgiving a small and seemingly insignificant trifle that would otherwise set you off. I used to have real problem with fast food places. Whenever some pimply-faced attitude wielding teenager didn't pay attention to me and screwed up my order I would fly into a rage (no seriously, I did). After finally realizing that this was not really a good way to go through life, I tried to let that anger go by understanding that they can make mistakes, and it doesn't necessarily mean that they are in some way trying to hurt me.

If you recognize you have a lot of anger in your life, AND you know that you don't like it, then try letting go of some of it in seemingly trifling situations. Have some road rage issues? Pop in a meditation tape, or some classical music, or a book on tape (so that you're actually doing something productive with the time you spend in the car) and try, for an afternoon, to be forgiving towards the people who you don't know and whose only fault is getting in your way at the wrong time.

Don't think of it as "I've got to do this or I'll never get better", and don't in any way assume that the end goal is to get you to forgive your abuser. Regardless of whether or not you feel that that is appropriate forgiveness is your choice, not mine. Think of this, rather, as an experiment. And don't judge yourself, or worry if your doing it right. Just try to pay attention to how you feel without trying to control it too much.

_________________________
"I am not a mechanism, an assembly of various sections.
And it is not because the mechanism is working wrongly, that I am ill.
I am ill because of wounds to the soul, to the deep emotional self...."
Healing D.H. Lawrence

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#146531 - 03/22/07 02:41 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: tartugas]
Morning Star Offline
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Every abuse is a memory, and a memory can be healed or released.

What releases a memory from our system is its acceptance as a truth by us, as it releases the pain caused when 'it' impacted our psyche.

That is why to a child, our most comforting words are – “Its ok, its ok, its ok”… I'm here.

And that is what our inner child still wants to here from us, that it IS ok, now. That is can relax now; take it easy as it is safe.

It wants to hear that from us.

And until we do that, it continues to speak the language of its wounds, and repeats its history every day, through the pain we experience and express through anger or any other uncontrollable behaviour pattern or habit that is unhealthy.

Once wounded by our past, we always feel that our life is out of control as we are too. We always feel that if only we could control ourselves better, we would be fine. And try we do hard enough, but fail eventually.

As stifling the wounded part of ourselves through over control is actually what keep us wounded, unhealed. As it ignores our wound completely, only treats the symptoms.

Every unhealthy or uncontrollable side of our psyche is a reflection of our wounded self, so treating the wound brings back things under control naturally; as the wound no longer has to raise red flags for us to notice it, by acting out or behaving out of control, it is only a body-mind mechanism to get our attention.

Healing begins with self acceptance. Even accepting the anger that we have, heals it, as that is the power of our acceptance, of our love.

And once we apply the same technique to the experience/s of abuse, they dissolve too, into our light.

That is when true healing occurs, and we begin to see light embedded in the darkest hour of our life. That is when, life comes a full circle, and we are called healed.

We no longer speak the language of our wounds; we speak of a brighter tomorrow and happier times ahead.

As there is no longer a wounded Self in us, we no longer carry the label of a wounded soul - the victim, as we have transcended that realm of darkness and stepped into our Light.


_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#146611 - 03/23/07 02:41 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Morning Star]
Morning Star Offline
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After having talked so much about the need for forgiveness and its importance in initiating our healing, allow me to add an important point - Forgiveness is seldom possible without ever releasing the residual anger or trauma of the experience, as that itself keeps us rooted in the experience and we re-experience it again either in real life through our nightmares.

This can be done either by physically venting out our anger, on a boxing mat, or beating up an imaginary effigy of our abuser.

But the best way according to me is, going back to the abuse experience in a meditation and changing it in our favour. And then change it with the light of gold.

When the energy of the abuse is no longer there to trouble us, we are free, to change anything we wish in the present moment. As then, we are no longer bothered about protecting ourselves as we did till now. We feel safe, as we have altered the energies of our abuse, from dark fear to pure gold!

That we when we can really come into our centre, the present moment, which where our power lies.

Otherwise, our mind keeps running around in all directions, as if trying to escape the pain and trauma of abuse. Once the abuse is healed, the mind feels safe once again and settled down in the present moment, it true centre and we begin to heal, naturally and surely.

_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#146687 - 03/23/07 12:43 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Morning Star]
Morning Star Offline
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As someone said today, "Life is not what happens to you, it is what you do with what happens to you."

\:\)

_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#146702 - 03/23/07 02:00 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Morning Star]
Nobbynobs Offline
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I like that one, MS. I also like "Be the change you want to see in the world."

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#146736 - 03/23/07 05:48 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Nobbynobs]
tartugas Offline
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Registered: 02/11/07
Posts: 513
Loc: NYC
Which I've always found to be much more helpful than "Be the ball." Why do I have to be the damn ball? Why don't you be the ball. Better yet, why don't we just invent a ball that does what I want it to?

_________________________
"I am not a mechanism, an assembly of various sections.
And it is not because the mechanism is working wrongly, that I am ill.
I am ill because of wounds to the soul, to the deep emotional self...."
Healing D.H. Lawrence

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#146835 - 03/24/07 12:23 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Nobbynobs]
Morning Star Offline
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Registered: 12/21/04
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Quote:
“Be the change you want to see in the world."


O I love that one by Mahatma Gandhi, because of its direct implications to our healing journey. As unless we learn to look within and change ourselves first, we continue fighting the external, including our triggers of the fears within.

And when we change, the external changes along with us, as it is merely a reflection of all that we are, within.

We have created all that we are experiencing right now, through a thought in the past, and every thought is a choice.


.

_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#146836 - 03/24/07 12:34 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Morning Star]
Morning Star Offline
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Here's Another inspiring one by Mahatma Gandhi -

I will give you a talisman.

Whenever you are in doubt or
when the self becomes too much with you,
apply the following test:

Recall the face of the poorest and weakest man
you have seen and ask yourself
if the step you contemplate is going to be
of any use to him.

Will he gain anything by it?
Will it restore him to control over his own
life and destiny?

In other words, will it lead to Swaraj
for the hungry and spiritually starving millions?

Then you will find your doubts
And your self melting away.


- Mahatma Gandhi

_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#146843 - 03/24/07 02:30 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Morning Star]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
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Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
once the abuse is healed? when does that happen?

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#146848 - 03/24/07 03:02 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: shadowkid]
tartugas Offline
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Registered: 02/11/07
Posts: 513
Loc: NYC
i think healing occurs on the timetable we set up for ourselves. we are the only ones who can do the hard work of healing, and we are also the only ones who can determine when we are, in fact healed.



Edited by tartugas (03/24/07 03:03 PM)
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And it is not because the mechanism is working wrongly, that I am ill.
I am ill because of wounds to the soul, to the deep emotional self...."
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#146850 - 03/24/07 03:21 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: tartugas]
FormerTexan Offline
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Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11047
Loc: Denver, CO
"once the abuse is healed? when does that happen?"

When the losses are recognized, and grieved.

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1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#146854 - 03/24/07 04:18 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: FormerTexan]
Nobbynobs Offline
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Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
When you can laugh and laugh, and then stop, and wonder why you were laughing, and then start laughing again just because.

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When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

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#146855 - 03/24/07 04:19 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: shadowkid]
reality2k4 Offline
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Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Adam, the best way to look at it, is look how the older guys got through.
It was sure tough with nobody to talk to, not a soul could be trusted with the biggest secret a boy has to hide.

Forgiveness starts with forgiving the little kid, and looking after him, because he is the one who took it all.
You owe it to him to say, hey lets not let the anger destroy us.

Anger is a survival instinct were the boy or man gets his body and mind ready for flight or fight.
Constant shots of adrenaline can make you feel real bad, but that is what you do when anger strikes.

If you fall, lift yourself up, give up the coffee for decaf, because caffeine actually increases anxiety,

ste


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#146892 - 03/24/07 10:13 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: FormerTexan]
Morning Star Offline
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Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
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Taking it on further from you...

The final moment in the journey of a victim - his becoming a healer.

The journey ends when the pain and hurts of breaking opening our core is released, and we express our gratitude for all that we have gained from within, hence - the Light and this incredible insight into the journey of a human soul.

When a flower breaks open at its core, it hurts.

No one can avoid the pain of opening up. Yet, the flower survives as it surrenders the pain to the Universe, and celebrates its opening up to the Universe.

The morning dew that we see on its petals, is nothing but tears of joy.


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~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#416534 - 11/18/12 06:21 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: tartugas]
WayTooConfused Offline


Registered: 10/28/12
Posts: 48
Loc: Florida
I find it so very funny, that in today's world where we do preach healing and dealing with events from our lives, and trying to move forward in a positive manner, that it doesn't mean very much to us the vicitim of such horrific abuse, that if no one believes you or takes no interest in what you are trying to accomplish while you are recovering: That "DEALING" with it doesn't seem to mean very much, especially when your seeking support from the ones you love so dearly.

Read my link/post below, and you may understand what I'm saying. Especially since I have no responses. It makes me wander if forgiving my attackers was worth the effort.
Sorry Bastards...You can kiss my ass!!!!
http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showthreaded&Number=416118#Post416118
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#416577 - 11/18/12 07:27 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: tartugas]
cant_remember Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/05
Posts: 1039
WTC,

Welcome to MS. I read your post about your experience, and I feel so deeply for you. I was also assaulted around 6, and the idea that someone would use that information against me to gang rape me is horrifying.

You are my brother, and I'm here to support you as you find the strength to prosecute the bastards, if that's what you decide to do.

Your account does not allow private messages, but if you unlock that feature we can talk more privately if you would like.

(((((WayToo))))))

Cant
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Recovery is possible. Hang in there, brothers.

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#416714 - 11/20/12 02:05 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: tartugas]
seikei Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/06/12
Posts: 94
I agree wholeheartdley. I'm only 19 but even at my young age I've learned that resentment and efforts for vengence always leaving people bitter and empty. Holding on to resentment truly does poison us inside so I think forgiveness is a key aspect of healing. Forgiveness does not absolve the guilt of offenders, however. I think if there was some way we could seperate the logical need to see offenders punished to the emotional need for vengence, our society would be much better off.

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#416812 - 11/21/12 10:40 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: tartugas]
Still Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6400
Loc: 2.5 NATO Nations
Its tough for me to see some of the old MS players on the early pages.

As I said on my 700 Club Segment: "I Jesus will forgive them (my four abusers), who am I to not forgive?"

Its just about the only step toward healing that I can say is as solid as a rock and I've never questioned it. Do I still have anger at them? Yes. Do I still grieve from what they did? YES. Do I wish they never had ______ ? YES!

I'm taking the energy of hate and turning it toward the entire society that enables CSA, covers-up CSA, ignores CSA, etc. I rage. Oh boy do I rage!!! But I rage against the social elements that made it possible for me to be devoured and millions of others.

I will always agree however, forgiveness is fully in our hands an no one else's...that we are under NO obligation to forgive. No one ever ought to tell a survivor "you need to forgive them."
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#445176 - 08/22/13 10:05 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: tartugas]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3322
Loc: O Kanada
i believe you are 100% correct in your thinking.
your explanation is clear and makes perfect sense.
it is worth revisiting.

as a survivor,
forgiveness was a major hurdle in my recovery,
but i finally overcame that obstacle.

wish i had done it decades sooner,
but i was unable and unwilling.

i cherished my desire for revenge.
i harboured my hatred because i felt like i had a right to be angry.
after i discovered that my anger was part of my self-abuse.
it had to go.

glad i got rid of it.
but, the change had to come from within.
nobody could convince me to forgive.

pure genius. tartugas
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#453780 - 11/15/13 12:47 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: tartugas]
jas4159 Offline


Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 278
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Thanks

rich

justanothersurvivror.wordpress.com

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