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#145597 - 03/15/07 11:49 PM Thoughts of Revenge
lostandconfused Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/10/07
Posts: 11

Tonight I was talking to Dean, and he made reference to some kids that were murdered. While it was tragic, he made all kinds of derogatory remarks about the killer, and while understandable, I made a comment that his emotions and passions were similar to the killer, and in his mind, he was no better than they. It was an observation I saw from my own past experiences. Not a judgment, but a warning that we should learn to be in better control of our passions and thoughts based upon my own experiences.

I got a tongue lashing as a result, and he told to watch my mouth. I said that, have we not learned anything from our past where abuse was inflicted on us, be it physical or sexual? Rather than address my comments, he attempted to belittle and control me by calling me a “Tree Hugging Hippy” rather than deal with the reality of the emotions he was feeling. It easier to act like judge jury and executioner, and pass judgement than it is to face up to the realities of how we feel.

Not long ago, I was anything but a “Tree Hugging Hippy” Because of the public humiliation I felt from my past. I had all sorts of nasty thoughts, and I intentionally let them come. Many consisted of nuking the world, bombing schools etc, and lashing out in whatever way I could because of the pain I felt directed toward me. So, what good comes of these thoughts for ourselves, even if we don’t act them out? Nothing good comes of them. They lower our state of living with anger and hate, and when acted upon even, they result in wars upon wars where no one is the winner. There is a lot of wisdom in the statement “An eye for an eye makes the world go blind”.

On a personal level, I was going through a major battle in my younger years, but in many ways, it also made me wiser and stronger and more understanding in regards to the world around me. We have a choice to act on every thought that comes are way, as did I. It could have ended up really bad for me, but it didn’t, because I chose peace and solace in my soul. If that makes me a “tree hugging hippy”, then so be it. I’d rather die with a sense of peace in my heart in knowing that I tried to help everyone regardless of their deeds, rather than going to the grave selfish in my thoughts and understandings.

When I look at the world around me, I try not to get lost in the details but look at the bigger picture. Like my life, it can be a painful growing process, but the end results can be worth it. The wars we see around the world is an example of humans trying to find themselves on a collective scale. The clashes of diverging belief systems, politics, and power in which time is riddle with, but much progress has still been made. If, you look at the conflicts with a jaundiced eye though then it would seem not much has changed, that is, conflicts and bloodshed continues. But it is through conflict that we grow, because static systems and dormant thought do not produce change.


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#145598 - 03/16/07 12:09 AM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: lostandconfused]
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
I'm with you, lost. I think that an obsession with revenge speaks of something incomplete or unresolved within a person's character. Revenge only creates more hate, pain and violence.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#145604 - 03/16/07 01:23 AM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: Nobbynobs]
jamie' Offline
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Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 125
Loc: Ont, Can
But revenge feel's so good.

I have to endulge in bad behavior by saying anger has kept me together. Distrust has kept me safe. And ghandi's saying of and eye for an eye.. makes sense but ghandi didnt put it in the context of a victims emotional state tewards an abuser.

Perhaps you are right. But i hold on to my anger and hate as if it were my ball's...its all i got. And i'm only speaking for me. And mean you no disrespect but am just discussing the topic. Without the fire of hate there is nothing. Once someone heals then i dont know maybe they realize all this enlightning stuff and the ghandi saying applys. But IMO atleast when someone isnt recoverd the hate keeps you going.

Me, a buck knife, a pair of pliers and a child molester...good times.



Edited by jamie' (03/16/07 02:22 AM)
_________________________
No matter how long and dark the night is, Or the fear and hurt that it can bring, there will always be a dawn, where we can push the past aside and move forward with hope.

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#145605 - 03/16/07 01:45 AM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: jamie']
ak Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 1491
If all we got is our anger and hate, I think it would be sad life. Those people, they see only the darkness, they only mistrust, they only think the worst intentions of other persons, and can not appreciate the beauty and good of the world around us. It is easier to me, by much, to be who I am, who is maybe at times hurt again in some way, but who can be happy and enjoy the good and positive of life, then to be someone who is 'fueled' off more negative emotions. It is not judgement of anyone, as I say, it is only how and what I think.

I am also not sure I would have identify by name the person I have the issue with, but that is of my own thinking also.

Andrei


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#145606 - 03/16/07 01:49 AM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: ak]
jamie' Offline
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Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 125
Loc: Ont, Can
Your right andrei. It is a sad life to live that way. Sometimes thats the only way you know though. And sometimes people realize that and come to places like this site. To try and change, to move forward some.

Kid's dont do nothing to nobody. Some are shit on continually. Sometimes you just want to hurt back.

_________________________
No matter how long and dark the night is, Or the fear and hurt that it can bring, there will always be a dawn, where we can push the past aside and move forward with hope.

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#145611 - 03/16/07 02:12 AM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: jamie']
ak Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 1491
See, I just, I do not understand the desire to 'hurt back'. I have friends, good friends, who would understand that feeling, and they are good, very good men. It is just not of my own nature. It do not make me better or worse of them, just different.

I hope this site can show you a 'better way', if what you live now is not satisfactroy to you.

Andrei


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#145612 - 03/16/07 02:21 AM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: ak]
jamie' Offline
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Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 125
Loc: Ont, Can
"I hope this site can show you a 'better way', if what you live now is not satisfactroy to you."

Me too andrei.

Of course if it was satisfactory to me i wouldnt be here.

_________________________
No matter how long and dark the night is, Or the fear and hurt that it can bring, there will always be a dawn, where we can push the past aside and move forward with hope.

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#145626 - 03/16/07 07:48 AM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: jamie']
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
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the opposite of anger is not peace its surrender,the anger ,hate and yes even violent thoughts i have over what happened are reserved for the bastard that hurt me ,they dont spill over onto anybody else ,or ruin my life in any way,i keep thenm to myself ,at least untill somebody tells me i have to forgive ,or tries to make excuses for child molesters,some people find peace through forgivness or resignation, its easy to do what we all did for so long just bury the anger and let it fester, id rather let it burn bright ,in what way does being pissed hurt me? to me my anger is the one way i can know it wasnt my fault ,when i accept what happend to me and lose the anger i'll be beaten ,i wont let it go cause its how i know what happened was wrong

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#145642 - 03/16/07 12:44 PM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: jamie']
lostandconfused Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/10/07
Posts: 11
Originally Posted By: jamie'
But revenge feel's so good.

I have to endulge in bad behavior by saying anger has kept me together. Distrust has kept me safe. And ghandi's saying of and eye for an eye.. makes sense but ghandi didnt put it in the context of a victims emotional state tewards an abuser.

Perhaps you are right. But i hold on to my anger and hate as if it were my ball's...its all i got. And i'm only speaking for me. And mean you no disrespect but am just discussing the topic. Without the fire of hate there is nothing. Once someone heals then i dont know maybe they realize all this enlightning stuff and the ghandi saying applys. But IMO atleast when someone isnt recoverd the hate keeps you going.

Me, a buck knife, a pair of pliers and a child molester...good times.


I can so empathize with you Jamie.

Before I was on the road to recovery, I had my own way as well of surviving, which consisted of only rational thinking. No humor, no laughing, no emotions etc. Hence, no close relationships either as a result. When someone would tease me, in order to bring me out, I closed up more, and responded with rational thoughts rather than tease them back.

My old thought patterns were the only thing that made me survive through all those years, and it was my comfort zone as well. In reality, there was nothing comfortable about it at all but only that it was the familiar and allowed me to cope with things in life the only way I knew how. It was actually like being imprisoned in hell, because I had not loved, nor felt love from anyone, and death was more preferable.

I felt scared and lost inside with even considering loosing all that, because I had built myself around that mode of thought, that it was so deeply entrenched in my psyche. How could I survive without that?

These days, I am laughing more, and am feeling a closeness to people I never knew existed. Some days I would cry because of all the wasted life before me, but also tears of joy because I at least broke free from the vicious cycle that was destroying my soul.

It was painful going through all that, but it was worth it. New thought patterns and ways of thinking are emerging which came about once I started controlling what I thought and wanted to think. My outlook on life, and other people is different as well. I don’t look for flaws in others in order to raise my self esteem, nor do I think on a fundamental level, anyone is better than me either. I look at people with love and compassion, because I understand the baggage everyone carries around with them, and how hard it can be to break free.

There are no normal people, but just people struggling to survive in the only way they know how. Most people might have what appears on the surface to be a ‘normal’ upbringing and perfect life. There are imperfections though in everyone and these can create conflicts in everyones life. Most people though, won’t look deep within themselves though for the answers, and may very well go to the grave that way as well. In more severe cases such as mine, and ours, I had no choice but to look within myself, because it was severe enough that it stopped me from living life to the fullest.


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#145643 - 03/16/07 12:49 PM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: jamie']
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: jamie'
And ghandi's saying of and eye for an eye.. makes sense but ghandi didnt put it in the context of a victims emotional state tewards an abuser.


Actually, he did. His statement was directed at the Indian people, to encourage them to forgive the many crimes committed by the British during the time that India was part of the British Empire.

Ghandi also forgave his assassin.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#145644 - 03/16/07 01:03 PM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: Nobbynobs]
jamie' Offline
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Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 125
Loc: Ont, Can
Lost, i want what you are describing. To live. I'm in a bad place today and your post offered the idea of hope. I needed that. I'm at the point where i'm wanting to rid myself of this anger and shit. And it makes me feel good to hear that you've gotten through it and arent just existing, but living. I just dont know what to do. There should be a step by step do it yourself recover handbook.

"Actually, he did. His statement was directed at the Indian people, to encourage them to forgive the many crimes committed by the British during the time that India was part of the British Empire."

Thank you for that tid-bit. I stand corrected.

_________________________
No matter how long and dark the night is, Or the fear and hurt that it can bring, there will always be a dawn, where we can push the past aside and move forward with hope.

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#145651 - 03/16/07 01:49 PM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: jamie']
lostandconfused Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/10/07
Posts: 11
Jamie,

Unfortunately, the solution lies within yourself. The solution would have to be tailored to fit you like a glove, since your way of thinking, outlook, survival mechanisms etc are all unique to you.

We have many things in common though, in that we live/lived in an isolated state, with various coping mechanisms in order to survive. But you chose anger and hate as a coping mechanism, while I chose being strictly rational with everyone.

What helped me the most though, was understanding that we are all the same on a fundamental level though. If we are pure soul when we come into the world, then its our thoughts and conditioning that tell us who we are.

So what makes me different from everyone else? Again, our thoughts and who we think we are. So I posted positive statements around my house such as, "I love myself", etc. Basically statements of change and how I wanted to be. The deeper thoughts from the subconscious would try to override these affirmations, and I would get a sinking feeling in my stomach and a mood and way of thinking that wanted to return.

I pushed these thoughts away though, because I didnt want to feel like that anymore. I failed a few times and sunk in to despair, and would feel like crap for the whole day, but eventually, I gained the upperhand. I now watch my thoughts a lot closer, especially in social situations, but also not much that I am too self conscious either.

I also took away all the control I had given to people that I had given them in the past. Such as my abusers, society in general by keeping up with the jones etc. Trying to fit in by copying others etc. I had to isolate myself from everyone so that I could work on myself, independent of what others wanted.

It seems strange saying that, since I was already isolated in my mind from everyone, but it was for different reasons i.e hiding etc. I needed to learn to get control for myself first, before putting this new person out into social settings etc.

I reasoned that I wanted to be happy in life regardless if I had a job, money etc, since I deserve to be happy, no matter what. Society and others tell us, in order to be happy, with have to have the latest and greatest things, nice houses, cars, wealth etc, but this is all a smoke screen. You dont need those to be happy, but rather it is something that comes from within yourself.

I was talking to a friend online, and discovered she was a life coach. She said she gets people that are never happy no matter, how much money they have etc. Some people just arent satisfied with what they have, and want more, because they base thier state of mind, and happiness on things outside themselves, which they cant control all the time, rather than something that comes from within you.

I would isolate your thoughts from everyone else, and forget what others want. Then tear down the walls that you have built, and start fresh with a new perspective that you desire.

Theres so much more I could say as well, but I have rambled on long enough lol.


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#145655 - 03/16/07 02:44 PM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: Nobbynobs]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
good for ghandi ,but im not a saint

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#145658 - 03/16/07 03:19 PM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: shadowkid]
ak Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 1491
It seem often that it is express here that if we are not angry, we are defective. The opposite of anger is NOT 'surrender' to me, for ME. Anger is not my nature, and to try to force myself to be angry, it is damaging to me. I have tried before, because people have told me 'oh, you must get angry, you must deal with the anger'. Well, why create it if it is not there? I am not excusing abuse, and I am not telling anyone they must forgive. I chose what I do for me, for what is best for me and my healing. It do not make me weak, and it do not make me less a survivor of anyone else.

But revenge? I can not understand that, within myself. I just do not see what positive or good thing can come from creating more pain and hurt, even if it is to someone you feel 'deserve' it. Do it make us stronger and more powerful to hurt another person? No. It make us, in my mind, lesser. Because it make us more like 'them', and I refuse to be that.

What is for me, is not for you. What is for you, is not for me. What is right for one person here maybe is not right for 100 other people. That is nature of being individual and dealing of such events. But as I do not judge another, only try my best (and fail, it seem) to explain mine own self, please do not judge me as less effective survivor then anyone else here. Just because I do not have anger, just because perhaps I am more quiet of things, it do not make me less effective of what I do.

Andrei


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#145662 - 03/16/07 04:20 PM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: ak]
jamie' Offline
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Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 125
Loc: Ont, Can
Thanks for taking the time lost. That was helpful to me.

Andrei i dont think thats even the message or point. There is no lesser or greater survivor. What you said was best. What is for you is for you. Whats for me is for me. And for me revenge wouldnt be about power. I dont even think it would make me feel any different. What it would be about is giving something back. I dont believe in god so i'm not waiting for god to mead out punishment. An eye for and eye can be just. And if it leaves the world blind then so be it. Yet i'm trying to break that mindframe. But thats how i'd feel anyway.

And its not creating anger. Anger is either there or it isnt. I wouldnt want anyone to make themselves angry as that's incredibly unhealthy. Some people just view things in a different way. React and deal in a different way. And hopefully oneday we will all reach the point where there is no more anger left to express.

_________________________
No matter how long and dark the night is, Or the fear and hurt that it can bring, there will always be a dawn, where we can push the past aside and move forward with hope.

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#145675 - 03/16/07 05:47 PM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: jamie']
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
"He who makes you angry has conquered you."

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#145683 - 03/16/07 06:34 PM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: Nobbynobs]
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 10946
Loc: Denver, CO
It depends on the anger. Productive anger is quite useful.

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#145690 - 03/16/07 08:36 PM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: FormerTexan]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
let me ask this question please? if when the abuse was happening i had just resigned myself to it,just said oh well not much i can do about it. i'll just let it happen.would i be here today to talk to you? no ,he damn near kileed me anyway ,without the white hot anger i would not have lived through it . maybe its true i dont need it now ,but for me i cant think about all the things he did to and took from me without being angry, somebody please tell me how to not be?

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#145692 - 03/16/07 08:57 PM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: shadowkid]
EGL Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 7819
There is a large difference between Justice and Revenge. I am satisfied that John Couey is getting his due Justice for having raped Jessica Lunsford and then stuffed her in a box and buried her alive. It is not Revenge, it is Justice. Revenge would have been turning him over the Jessica's father so that he could enact any kind of horrible death on him he wanted. We are a society that lives by the rule of law, and our laws have provided that monsters such as Couey are qualified for the death penalty. Some think it is barbaric in any form. But they didn't write our laws.

_________________________
Eddie

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#145694 - 03/16/07 08:59 PM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: FormerTexan]
EGL Offline
Moderator Emeritus
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Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 7819
Originally Posted By: FormerTexan
It depends on the anger. Productive anger is quite useful.


Agreed, FT. Very true. I can think of a Man of 2,000 years ago Who got angry on occasion.

_________________________
Eddie

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#145695 - 03/16/07 09:14 PM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: EGL]
Nobbynobs Offline
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Registered: 06/26/05
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Loc: Toronto
He also forgave his torturers.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#145699 - 03/16/07 09:46 PM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: Nobbynobs]
FormerTexan Offline
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Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 10946
Loc: Denver, CO
Nobs,

That's true too. However, that does not simply nullify legitimate anger. Anger in itself is not a bad thing. How we direct it can be good or bad. Most if not all of the people here have at some level very legitimate anger. They have every right to be angry over what was lost. But we as fellow sufferers have the privilege, perhaps even a duty, to acknowledge each other's anger, not invalidate it.

I agree that forgiveness is important, but in my mind is near impossible to achieve without processing that anger and grieving the losses. To demand forgiveness before anger is acknowledged is an unfair burden to place on the sufferer, so much so that they can feel abused again, in a different way. But by acknowledging that anger, you have done a great thing by letting this person be heard. I listen to angry people all the time at my job when they call in complaining about being on hold for a long time. I just listen to them and let them vent. They are not angry with me per se, just about how they were treated. It's the same with abuse survivors. They are angry over how they were treated and have a right to be angry.

Now, if there is a way I can look at Jesus and draw from His example, then by all means I will do that. For now, I can listen to the highest of anger from people on this site and be ok with it simply because they need to express that anger to someone kind enough to lend them an ear. I hope that others will do likewise for me.

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#145706 - 03/16/07 10:27 PM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: FormerTexan]
EGL Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 7819
I agree, FT. Being able to forgive has nothing to do with anger, in my opinion. One need not be angry in order for the eventual possibility of forgiveness to come. Looked at another way, I need and want forgiveness for my sins, but I do not have to have anger that causes me to want that forgiveness. To say one need only have a forgiving nature to overcome their anger really misses the mark, I think. It's a vast oversimplification of a very complex emotional process. To think that those who have anger just aren't as enlightened or further along on a "path" of some sort is really not understanding of the grief process. You got to grieve the loss caused by the offense, and that can involve anger over what was unrightfully taken from you.

_________________________
Eddie

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#145709 - 03/16/07 10:40 PM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: EGL]
Nobbynobs Offline
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Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
I agree with you both. And even Jesus got pretty pissed off when he whapped those guys with a knotted cord.

However, I still hold that anger is very dangerous if it is not properly released. Beating the crap out of a tree with a bat is one thing, beating your kids is another.

I think my problem is that a lot of survivors misdirect their anger back at their perps. This is natural, because the perp was the "cause" of the anger in the first place, but they are not a very good target. First, because it is highly unlikely that a survivor will ever get the opportunity to exercise his anger at his perp, and second because there is a very good chance that the perp will either retaliate or ridicule the survivor.

In one of my first therapy sessions, my T had me write a letter to my perp, telling him exactly how I felt and what I wanted to do to him. It was a furiously angry letter and I described all kinds of ways that I wanted to torture my perp for what he had done. Then, I burned the letter.

Now, whenever that same anger at my perp threatens to come back, I find a similar release. I either yell at my perp, or write him another letter (and burn it) or find some way to get that feeling out. What I never do is use the anger in any way. It's just too dangerous. If I used the anger, I am afraid that my judgement would be clouded and I would somehow compromise myself by making a stupid decision (like calling my perp and threatening him).

I agree that forgiveness has nothing to do with anger, but I think that the two are related. Eddie I agree that until you get your anger processed and under control, things like forgiveness are a bad idea. You'd only end up compromising yourself. However, that does not mean that forgiveness can't be a goal in your recovery.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#145711 - 03/16/07 10:48 PM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: Nobbynobs]
EGL Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 7819
I think we're on the same wave, Nobs, and your point about a survivor misdirecting his anger is well taken. A tree is one thing, those you love is quite another. My T had me do a similar exercise as yours did, except he asked me to verbalize the anger I hold towards my brother. I couldn't do it. It was just so intense that it was literally unspeakable. I couldn't think of words to do it justice. That anger is under control now, but certainly not gone. I have learned to just not let that anger interfere with or control me. Eventually, I may get to forgiveness, but I ain't there yet. Right now, I'm just learning to live amongst the living again. Once I do that, I can concentrate on learning to live with those who wronged me. And your point about premature forgiveness is golden - I wish everyone could read that and understand that forgiveness is not so much for the one who did the wrong, as it is for the one who was wronged.

_________________________
Eddie

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#145776 - 03/17/07 12:19 PM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: EGL]
Dewey2k Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 3069
Anger is an emotion like any other. It tells us that some injustice has been put upon us. Most often, emotions are there to tell us whether what is happening in any given moment is good, bad, dangerous, safe, scary, etc.

Emotions are tools, to be noted and acted on appropriately. We control those reactions as best we can given our own unique history. Some people react to their abuse with rage, and that's okay. Others react with indifference, and that's okay too. Emotions are not wrong- they just are.

One person shouldn't tell another person how to feel or that what they feel is wrong any more than one person should tell another person that they don't belong on this site because their abuse wasn't bad enough, or because it happened in adulthood (and both have happened recently on this site).

If someone doesn't feel the rage that another does, then that is their right. It's their life, and they are entitled to deal with it as they wish. One may disagree with this stance--it is one's right to disagree--but one may NOT condemn them or ridicule them for their choice. A personal attack never helps anything. Let them manage their own recovery and make the choices they feel compelled to make, even if you think they're wrong. They have to learn in their own way, and maybe you'll find that you might learn something from them.


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#145777 - 03/17/07 12:21 PM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: EGL]
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 10946
Loc: Denver, CO
Eddie,

"forgiveness is not so much for the one who did the wrong, as it is for the one who was wronged."

I totally agree. As another member here put it, it does NOT mean "You, perp, are wiped clean of all the offenses you did against me even though you aren't sorry." It means I can finally let it go and not get angry about it all the time.

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#145784 - 03/17/07 01:04 PM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: FormerTexan]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
i think sometimes guys here do find ways to forgive and it works so well for them that they just naturally want to give that to others ,its just that some of us are not emotionaly able to accept it,i dont think its really about saying well if you dont forgive your screwed its about finding something that works and wanting to share it .nothing wrong with that !instead of looking at it as an attack i try to see it as a friend trying to help by sharing what worked for them ,sometimes i do feel like im being told my anger is bad for me and if i dont forgive i'm doomed ,but i try to see it for what it is ,just people trying to help the only way they know how. and if i found this great thing that helped me heal i would be very intense about passing it on.its just that we all got to do this our own way ,yes i get pissed on some of these posts cause my feelings of anger nd betrayl are so strong ,but i think in the long run its just guys trying to help guys the only way they have available to them ,but no one even with the best intentions ,can force forgivness on another or invalidate peoples feelings of anger any more than joy,if it seemed like in this post i was saying that if guys are not angry its wrong, im sorry ,that would be the same as saying im wrong cause i wont forgive ,i would never do that.

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#145788 - 03/17/07 01:23 PM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: shadowkid]
tartugas Offline
Board Member
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 02/11/07
Posts: 513
Loc: NYC
I think that anger is simply an emotion. As such it is as powerful and valid as any other emotion.

No emotion is bad. What becomes an obstacle for many people (and this is true of all people not just survivors) is that oftentimes we allow a particular emotion to hold greater weight in our view of the world than another. Some people who see the world with rose colored glasses are blissfully ignorant of the suffering at their feet. Likewise, a person engrossed in their anger may miss hundreds of moments of joy and humor that are just as close to them.

Emotions stir us to some kind of action. We can choose to move towards an emotion or move away from it. I think that It is these choices, these actions, which can rightly be judged morally. Not a person as a whole, nor any particular feeling that may overtake us in a given moment.

I grieve for my brothers who are overwhelmed by anger, not because I think they are hurting themselves, but because they may be missing out on so much of the joy that is so close to them at every moment of the day. But I would never tell anyone that their anger is misplaced or unjustified. Every feeling is valid in the moment it comes to us. The challenge to remember that a feeling is just a feeling, and it never has the power to make us do anything. Actions are controlled by the will, we must choose to act. No matter how passionate we may be the moment we draw our swords, we can always choose to walk away from the battle.

_________________________
"I am not a mechanism, an assembly of various sections.
And it is not because the mechanism is working wrongly, that I am ill.
I am ill because of wounds to the soul, to the deep emotional self...."
Healing D.H. Lawrence

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#145789 - 03/17/07 01:27 PM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: lostandconfused]
Morning Star Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: Home

In my opinion our true revenge would be to make our life so bright, joyous and full of laughter that the forces of darkness will be simply be dazzled out of it, forever.

If we continue to hold thoughts of anger, hate or revenge, it still victory for the abusers, not us.

If we too end up being just righteous and revengeful for life, who wins then? Not us.

_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#145791 - 03/17/07 01:34 PM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: Morning Star]
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 10946
Loc: Denver, CO
Good statement, Star.

I'll tell you what, if I was to do "eye for an eye" on my perps, then I would be them. And I will Never be anything like them. I would rather be hung than do what any of them did to me.

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#145794 - 03/17/07 01:44 PM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: FormerTexan]
Morning Star Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: Home
Eye for an eye can be wonderful idea though the only problem with it, is that it would turn us into race of blinds, each filled with equal darkness.

We need more lightness here and less of darkness. And freedom from darkness needs courage on our part to forgive. It is ultimate sign of strength. Just as strength is not in withstanding in strongest winds like the grand oak, but to sneak out like even though there is snow all around, like the cherry blossom.

For years, I thought that my strength was in NOT breakingdown, as that was sign of ultimate weakness, and it took me many years of failings to understand that it takes courage to breakdown. As each breakdown has the possibility of a breakthrough.

For years I was busy only trying to new coping mechanisms to keep it all together, rather than find ways to heal. That is why for so many years I too was stuck with my past and its anger, pride and thoughts of revenge floated in and out of my mind night and day.

Perhaps I still want to be strong.

Little did I realise then that my weakest moment would turn out to my strongest.

As it was my state of undeniable and utter powerlessness that gave me the strength to surrender to the light within, and ask for His help, that moment He became my strength, and I understood what is the true meaning of healing - to become whole, to meet my wholeness, in my divine Self.

And that was my turnaround point.

Till then I wanted to do it on my own. What is humanly impossible, God makes it possible, and we call it a miracle.

_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#145813 - 03/17/07 03:46 PM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: Morning Star]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
somehow this post went back to saying anger is hurting us. anger is bad and you feel sorry for the ones that are angry. i just dont understand how anyone can think about their abuse and not feel anger. i know we are al;l different and if people dont feel anger thats cool,but then what do you feel? nothing? is that healing or staying the same? i get anger boiling in me when i think about what happened to all of you! maybe someday i wont be mad about what happened to me ,i'll always be mad about what happened to you.

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#145814 - 03/17/07 03:48 PM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: shadowkid]
testingWaters Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/19/06
Posts: 508
Morning Star - Thank you for writing this, I know just what you mean:

"it took me many years of failings to understand that it takes courage to breakdown."


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#145871 - 03/18/07 12:07 AM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: lostandconfused]
ecb Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 205
Looking over this topic prompted me to spew forth some brain voimit in my journal, (it's topicly relevent, as my anger is something that I've been giving some though to lately.) Anyway, I felt it was worth sharing, even if you all may not. \:\)

-Eric
---
I'm an angry guy.

I try not to let that spill over to others. I try really hard not to snap at people, I try not to bring others down when I'm really angry, and if I can't I just avoid being around people, because I don't want to be a total asshole that embarrasses his friends.

Anger is one of my coping mechanisims. It works. It keeps people at arms length, becuase no one wants to be around somone whos pissed off all the time. It's also part of what is keeping me so lonely. And it isn't as though my anger isn't justified. Beyond even the many and varied shit sandwiches I've had to eat througout my life, as well as seeing those I care about be served their own with no recourse, the word is just a shitty place. The old saying "if you aren't pissed then you aren't paying attention" is true!

But I don't want to be bitter. Even more, my anger is a part of who I am now. I have a temper. It's part of who I am, who I am expected to be. My friends and I joke about it. That's just me.

I look back and I think I can see when my anger started. I have vivid images of second grade (both of them.) Kicking the walls in frustrated rage, hurling a desk at a kid who pissed me off (though I couldn't tell you for the life of me what he did), screaming at a teacher (I don't know why), being so pissed off that I whipped open a locker door and accidently hit a girl in the face with it (I actually feel really bad about that one, even at the time I immediately apologized for all I was worth.)

I don't know if I was angry before that. I don't have any reccolections of doing shit like that before second grade.

It was the year I was forcilby picked up and moved away from everything I ever knew. It started a bad attidude because I didn't want to move. It was also the grade when I was being raped.

I couldn't rail against him. I don't even think I knew to. After all, he liked me and WANTED to hang out with me when no one else did. But I sure could rail against everything and everyone else that didn't just leave me the fuck alone. In the span of a year my tiny little world as I knew it had gone to shit, and I was pissed damnit!

My world continued on a downword spiral ever since. My mother drank too much, shacked up with an emotionally abusive scumbag, drank more to escape, my life continued on, slowly getting worse, more confused, more out of control. Why the fuck shouldn't I be pissed.

Two years away from my mother and her chaos, even lessened though it was once she finally got rid of the scumbag, is what it took me to truely realize not just where my anger started, but why it continued. Why it endured and why it became so engrained in me.

My shrink tells me there are physical effects to my anger. That's probably true. But I don't know how to let it go. Not only has it kept me safe and most others at arms length, but I'm right! My anger is righteous! I'm angry at the apathy of the world. At the people who look the other way when a kid is hurt, or the fuckers who hurt a kid in the first place, or the guy who would rob an old lady, on and on these examples of bad people go. I want to hurt all these people: badly. I fantasize about taking a piece of shit like this and pummeling his face into ground chuck with a lead pipe. I want to hurt bad people, all of them, very, very brutally. But that just doesn't get me anywhere, becuase I can't. It's not feasable, and it's not moral.

So I guess I should try to find a way to not be angry. But I don't know how. I don't know if I want to. If no one is angry for the people who are getting routinely shit on and hurt in this world, it'll continue. Then again, it continues anyway, so what does my rage matter except to poison me? Is it a poison? It's always felt like a salve...sorta.

The worst part is, even if I knew I wanted to get past my rage and let go of my anger, I wouldn't know how.

And that just pisses me off.


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#145872 - 03/18/07 12:22 AM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: ecb]
mack Offline
Guest

Registered: 03/07/07
Posts: 101
Loc: new mexico
ecb, I feel exactly what you are saying. I wish I could put it in my own words. Your words will have to do for now. Thank you for your post

_________________________
mack

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#145873 - 03/18/07 12:33 AM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: mack]
jamie' Offline
Guest

Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 125
Loc: Ont, Can
Thanks for sharing that ecb. You hit the nail on the head.

_________________________
No matter how long and dark the night is, Or the fear and hurt that it can bring, there will always be a dawn, where we can push the past aside and move forward with hope.

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#145901 - 03/18/07 03:27 AM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: jamie']
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16263
What this discussion illustrates for me is the fact that we're all in a different place. It also illustrates better than any thread I've read on the subject in the 18+ months I've been here exactly what a fantastic bunch of guys inhabit this place. Andrei, Eddie, Former Texan, Dwayne, Lostandconfused, jamie, Nobby mack, Adam, and all the rest of you guys are some of most courageous, gentle, strong, loving men I've ever known. Is it any wonder I keep coming back?

Thanks so very much for being you!

Lots of love,

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#145918 - 03/18/07 10:32 AM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: WalkingSouth]
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Quote:
That's probably true. But I don't know how to let it go. Not only has it kept me safe and most others at arms length, but I'm right! My anger is righteous!


Then explain why you're left feeling impotent to stop the things in the world that make you angry.

A guy I know likes to say that anger is useful for about 10 seconds, and then you put it away and get to work. Going around feeling angry at all the injustice of the world will only serve to drive you crazy. And the world has plenty of horrors to throw at you, so you will never escape injustice. If you really want to make a change, stop going around fuming about everything, calm down, and get to work helping to fix some of the problems.

Ecb, here's what I suggest. Go to a local charity, preferably one that works with children or people with disabilities, (like the YMCA) and sign up as a volunteer. I think that you will find the experience very enlightening.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#145920 - 03/18/07 11:44 AM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: Nobbynobs]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
because its illegal to use my gun thats why i feel impotent to stop the the insanity. guess i could wait for god to punish them but im not wasting my time waiting on god for anything ,10 years of waitingg is enough ,yes?

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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