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#145695 - 03/16/07 09:14 PM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: EGL]
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
He also forgave his torturers.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#145699 - 03/16/07 09:46 PM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: Nobbynobs]
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 10961
Loc: Denver, CO
Nobs,

That's true too. However, that does not simply nullify legitimate anger. Anger in itself is not a bad thing. How we direct it can be good or bad. Most if not all of the people here have at some level very legitimate anger. They have every right to be angry over what was lost. But we as fellow sufferers have the privilege, perhaps even a duty, to acknowledge each other's anger, not invalidate it.

I agree that forgiveness is important, but in my mind is near impossible to achieve without processing that anger and grieving the losses. To demand forgiveness before anger is acknowledged is an unfair burden to place on the sufferer, so much so that they can feel abused again, in a different way. But by acknowledging that anger, you have done a great thing by letting this person be heard. I listen to angry people all the time at my job when they call in complaining about being on hold for a long time. I just listen to them and let them vent. They are not angry with me per se, just about how they were treated. It's the same with abuse survivors. They are angry over how they were treated and have a right to be angry.

Now, if there is a way I can look at Jesus and draw from His example, then by all means I will do that. For now, I can listen to the highest of anger from people on this site and be ok with it simply because they need to express that anger to someone kind enough to lend them an ear. I hope that others will do likewise for me.

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#145706 - 03/16/07 10:27 PM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: FormerTexan]
EGL Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 7819
I agree, FT. Being able to forgive has nothing to do with anger, in my opinion. One need not be angry in order for the eventual possibility of forgiveness to come. Looked at another way, I need and want forgiveness for my sins, but I do not have to have anger that causes me to want that forgiveness. To say one need only have a forgiving nature to overcome their anger really misses the mark, I think. It's a vast oversimplification of a very complex emotional process. To think that those who have anger just aren't as enlightened or further along on a "path" of some sort is really not understanding of the grief process. You got to grieve the loss caused by the offense, and that can involve anger over what was unrightfully taken from you.

_________________________
Eddie

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#145709 - 03/16/07 10:40 PM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: EGL]
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
I agree with you both. And even Jesus got pretty pissed off when he whapped those guys with a knotted cord.

However, I still hold that anger is very dangerous if it is not properly released. Beating the crap out of a tree with a bat is one thing, beating your kids is another.

I think my problem is that a lot of survivors misdirect their anger back at their perps. This is natural, because the perp was the "cause" of the anger in the first place, but they are not a very good target. First, because it is highly unlikely that a survivor will ever get the opportunity to exercise his anger at his perp, and second because there is a very good chance that the perp will either retaliate or ridicule the survivor.

In one of my first therapy sessions, my T had me write a letter to my perp, telling him exactly how I felt and what I wanted to do to him. It was a furiously angry letter and I described all kinds of ways that I wanted to torture my perp for what he had done. Then, I burned the letter.

Now, whenever that same anger at my perp threatens to come back, I find a similar release. I either yell at my perp, or write him another letter (and burn it) or find some way to get that feeling out. What I never do is use the anger in any way. It's just too dangerous. If I used the anger, I am afraid that my judgement would be clouded and I would somehow compromise myself by making a stupid decision (like calling my perp and threatening him).

I agree that forgiveness has nothing to do with anger, but I think that the two are related. Eddie I agree that until you get your anger processed and under control, things like forgiveness are a bad idea. You'd only end up compromising yourself. However, that does not mean that forgiveness can't be a goal in your recovery.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#145711 - 03/16/07 10:48 PM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: Nobbynobs]
EGL Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 7819
I think we're on the same wave, Nobs, and your point about a survivor misdirecting his anger is well taken. A tree is one thing, those you love is quite another. My T had me do a similar exercise as yours did, except he asked me to verbalize the anger I hold towards my brother. I couldn't do it. It was just so intense that it was literally unspeakable. I couldn't think of words to do it justice. That anger is under control now, but certainly not gone. I have learned to just not let that anger interfere with or control me. Eventually, I may get to forgiveness, but I ain't there yet. Right now, I'm just learning to live amongst the living again. Once I do that, I can concentrate on learning to live with those who wronged me. And your point about premature forgiveness is golden - I wish everyone could read that and understand that forgiveness is not so much for the one who did the wrong, as it is for the one who was wronged.

_________________________
Eddie

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#145776 - 03/17/07 12:19 PM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: EGL]
Dewey2k Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 3069
Anger is an emotion like any other. It tells us that some injustice has been put upon us. Most often, emotions are there to tell us whether what is happening in any given moment is good, bad, dangerous, safe, scary, etc.

Emotions are tools, to be noted and acted on appropriately. We control those reactions as best we can given our own unique history. Some people react to their abuse with rage, and that's okay. Others react with indifference, and that's okay too. Emotions are not wrong- they just are.

One person shouldn't tell another person how to feel or that what they feel is wrong any more than one person should tell another person that they don't belong on this site because their abuse wasn't bad enough, or because it happened in adulthood (and both have happened recently on this site).

If someone doesn't feel the rage that another does, then that is their right. It's their life, and they are entitled to deal with it as they wish. One may disagree with this stance--it is one's right to disagree--but one may NOT condemn them or ridicule them for their choice. A personal attack never helps anything. Let them manage their own recovery and make the choices they feel compelled to make, even if you think they're wrong. They have to learn in their own way, and maybe you'll find that you might learn something from them.


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#145777 - 03/17/07 12:21 PM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: EGL]
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 10961
Loc: Denver, CO
Eddie,

"forgiveness is not so much for the one who did the wrong, as it is for the one who was wronged."

I totally agree. As another member here put it, it does NOT mean "You, perp, are wiped clean of all the offenses you did against me even though you aren't sorry." It means I can finally let it go and not get angry about it all the time.

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#145784 - 03/17/07 01:04 PM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: FormerTexan]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
i think sometimes guys here do find ways to forgive and it works so well for them that they just naturally want to give that to others ,its just that some of us are not emotionaly able to accept it,i dont think its really about saying well if you dont forgive your screwed its about finding something that works and wanting to share it .nothing wrong with that !instead of looking at it as an attack i try to see it as a friend trying to help by sharing what worked for them ,sometimes i do feel like im being told my anger is bad for me and if i dont forgive i'm doomed ,but i try to see it for what it is ,just people trying to help the only way they know how. and if i found this great thing that helped me heal i would be very intense about passing it on.its just that we all got to do this our own way ,yes i get pissed on some of these posts cause my feelings of anger nd betrayl are so strong ,but i think in the long run its just guys trying to help guys the only way they have available to them ,but no one even with the best intentions ,can force forgivness on another or invalidate peoples feelings of anger any more than joy,if it seemed like in this post i was saying that if guys are not angry its wrong, im sorry ,that would be the same as saying im wrong cause i wont forgive ,i would never do that.

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#145788 - 03/17/07 01:23 PM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: shadowkid]
tartugas Offline
Board Member
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 02/11/07
Posts: 513
Loc: NYC
I think that anger is simply an emotion. As such it is as powerful and valid as any other emotion.

No emotion is bad. What becomes an obstacle for many people (and this is true of all people not just survivors) is that oftentimes we allow a particular emotion to hold greater weight in our view of the world than another. Some people who see the world with rose colored glasses are blissfully ignorant of the suffering at their feet. Likewise, a person engrossed in their anger may miss hundreds of moments of joy and humor that are just as close to them.

Emotions stir us to some kind of action. We can choose to move towards an emotion or move away from it. I think that It is these choices, these actions, which can rightly be judged morally. Not a person as a whole, nor any particular feeling that may overtake us in a given moment.

I grieve for my brothers who are overwhelmed by anger, not because I think they are hurting themselves, but because they may be missing out on so much of the joy that is so close to them at every moment of the day. But I would never tell anyone that their anger is misplaced or unjustified. Every feeling is valid in the moment it comes to us. The challenge to remember that a feeling is just a feeling, and it never has the power to make us do anything. Actions are controlled by the will, we must choose to act. No matter how passionate we may be the moment we draw our swords, we can always choose to walk away from the battle.

_________________________
"I am not a mechanism, an assembly of various sections.
And it is not because the mechanism is working wrongly, that I am ill.
I am ill because of wounds to the soul, to the deep emotional self...."
Healing D.H. Lawrence

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#145789 - 03/17/07 01:27 PM Re: Thoughts of Revenge [Re: lostandconfused]
Morning Star Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: Home

In my opinion our true revenge would be to make our life so bright, joyous and full of laughter that the forces of darkness will be simply be dazzled out of it, forever.

If we continue to hold thoughts of anger, hate or revenge, it still victory for the abusers, not us.

If we too end up being just righteous and revengeful for life, who wins then? Not us.

_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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