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#14487 - 01/21/07 01:23 PM Am I really a Vigilante?
onefastbike Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/17/04
Posts: 84
Loc: Toronto
I have had 3 of my posts deleted because they link back to eith my site, or a site that has a link to my site on it. I was told that this site does not support vigilanteism.
I hadn't considered myself that until it was put that way. I was just truly excited that for the first time in my life I felt free of the bonds of fear and self loathing. To me it felt VERY healthy and empowering to build a site to expose my perp to hsi friends, family, and peers. It also is a resource for all his other victims to get in touch and support each other. A few have already contaced me and it has been an amazing experience.
I does feel GREAT to think that my perp is feeling the SHAME that I felt for so many years.

In my excitement I only wanted to share this with others on the board. This all came about in the last 7 weeks. 7 weeks ago I was a diferent person living in fear of being exposed.
Through the support of THIS site I was given a voice and finally came out to my friends and family about the abuse. It was then that I got the ball rolling. I chose to "push back". When I found out that he is still offending I went off the deep end. He needed to be stopped. (but that is another story)

So I apologize for posting those links. In my excitment I forgot that not everyone here is in the same state of healing that I am. I do remember the mess that I was when i first came here for support.
I guess part of me was looking for a pat on the back, and another part of me wanted others to know what is possible with just a few key clicks.

I am here to support anyone who needs support. I am here to return what was given to me. Kindness and understanding. My intent was NEVER to cause anyone here harm.

I am going to step away from MS for a while. It is obvious that my presence is/could be disturbing to others seeking healing. Maybe once my issues are put to bed I will be able to contribute here in a healthy way.

My sincerest apologies to the Mods and members of MS.

Good luck on your road to healing. I hope you all find peace.

Much Love,

Ken

Quote:
A vigilante is someone who takes enforcement of law or moral code into their own hands. The term vigilante stems from the name "Vigiles Urbani" given to the nightwatchmen of Ancient Rome who were tasked with fighting fires and keeping a lookout for runaway slaves and burglars. In modern Western society, the term is frequently applied to those citizens who "take the law into their own hands," meting out "frontier justice" when they perceive that the actions of established authorities are insufficient. Vigilantism is sometimes vilified when it gives way to criminal behavior on the part of the vigilante.



_________________________
Beware the lollipop of mediocrity. Lick once and you suck forever.

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#14488 - 01/21/07 02:50 PM Re: Am I really a Vigilante?
duncanUK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/24/06
Posts: 632
Hi Ken

I dont think you are a Vigilante. I have not read your past posts that have now being deleted.

I sometimes wish I could go out there a "clean" things up, But thats what why we have the law enforcemnet agencies to do it for us.

Duncan

_________________________
you dont see me. i am not really here. Its my fault.. all of it. I am to blame and no one else.

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#14489 - 01/21/07 02:55 PM Re: Am I really a Vigilante?
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
I dont think its permissable to post your own site on this one.
The mods have to check links, and sometimes I post links to sites that help.
Firstly I check the site does not contain anything that maybe seen as unsavoury.
I have asked mods to delete links that I have posted when I found after posting something unsavoury.
I never saw your link, so I cannot comment, ask the mods,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#14490 - 01/21/07 02:57 PM Re: Am I really a Vigilante?
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
i think for some ,fighting back at the abusers is the only way to stop being a victim. i dont see that exposing someone for what they are is being a vigilante .i think your doing the right thing

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#14491 - 01/21/07 03:45 PM Re: Am I really a Vigilante?
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Ken,

I read your posts and went to the 2 sites you mentioned.

In my opinion, your posts were not appropriate for MS. This is a healing community, and this type of activism can be disruptive. I'm all for going after perps, but some of the guys here are at a bad stage in their recovery, and the kind of actions your site and the other site encourage could cause them damage.

And for what it is worth, I would also call your site and the other one "vigilante" sites. You are advocating hunting down and harassing people, which is illegal.

Ken, if you are REALLY serious about stopping child molesters, then get in touch with one of the guys here who are SERIOUSLY doing it, but doing it the right way by working WITH the system, not AGAINST it. Talk to Rik or Kirk, they have plenty of experience with public advocacy and I bet they have a lot of suggestions on how you can get involved in advocacy work. I know that there is a lot of work being done already in Canada, but I'm sure that the advocates would be very interested in meeting you. They need all the help they can get.

If you really want to help, stop with the vigilantism and start working with the people who are trying to make things better. You are obviously a man of dedication and skill, so try putting those gifts to good use. For example, I can think of no better person to talk to boys about sexual abuse than a former special forces soldier. They will admire you, which means they will listen to you.

Understand your gifts.

Nobby

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#14492 - 01/21/07 03:52 PM Re: Am I really a Vigilante?
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
its not politicaly correct to fight back dude !we should find these perps and get them the help they need ! yeah right. god forbid that somebody should try to shine a light into the dark world where perps live. doing anything is better than doing nothing. if i track down a perps blog and get it removed is that harrasing ?is it illegal? does it feel good ? yes. we dont have to be victims forever do we?

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#14493 - 01/21/07 04:03 PM Re: Am I really a Vigilante?
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
how can it be bad to make a stand ?to say not only am i not gonna be a victim anymore im gonna take back my self respect. seems like something very healing to me . isnt that why we are here?to face our fears and pasts and then not just say ok i was abused and just leave it at that?victims sit and wring their hands saying oh it was so bad survivors say yes it was bad and this is what im gonna do about it. i agree it might not be for everyone but it shouldnt be a bad thing ,i say anything short of a bullet is ok in the fight against abuse

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#14494 - 01/21/07 04:18 PM Re: Am I really a Vigilante?
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
I "stopped being a victim" when my abuse stopped.

"Fighting back" is a good catch-all term, and for some meanings of it, it's not a bad thing. But that doesn't mean that absolutely ANY kind of proactive resistance is just fine. You pick your battles - and there are PLENTY of highly effective ways of taking a stand that don't involve you and a jail cell. So if your version of "taking a stand" is doing something that can get you arrested, all that means is that you're picking the -wrong- battles.

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

Oprah's resources for male survivors

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#14495 - 01/21/07 04:27 PM Re: Am I really a Vigilante?
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
I partially agree. There are plenty of things worth getting arrested for, but in the case of rounding up child molesters, the police are on our side. There's no need to do anything that might result in us getting arrested. The best thing to do is to work with them, to help them do their job.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#14496 - 01/21/07 04:44 PM Re: Am I really a Vigilante?
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5773
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
If I may address just one area....

There was a link to BoyChat. I've been to this site a number of times and developed an online relationship with two very public self-proclaimed "Boy Lovers" to better understand them for the purposes of educating my colleagues.

The site was infuriating to me at times and remember I am a professional who works extensively with sexual abusers. So, if they pissed me off, think what they could do to someone less "hardened" in listening to the rationalizations of this sorry crew!

Going after them, especially on their turf could be pretty upsetting and possibly damaging to a person working on his own recovery. Also, as we have seen in recent months, inviting them to come here to listen to the pain and hurt of survivors does not work. We had to firmly request a group of them to leave us alone a few months back.

I think the comments posted here about taking a positive approach to your healing is better than going after them, whether one calls it vigilanteism or not. I think it is a potential waste of valuable energy that could be applied to positive relationship building and healing.

I don't think you need to leave here, Ken. Take the positives you get from this community and save the energy for healing.

Ken


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#14497 - 01/21/07 05:05 PM Re: Am I really a Vigilante?
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
my abuse ended when i was 11, i didnt stop being a victim untill i decided to do something other than just sit around feeling sorry for myself,which i did and still do a lot,for me it was a choice ,either wallow in self pity which i found very easy to do ,or try to do something ,anything to fight back ,but there are groups dedicated to doing just that ,so it doesnt have to be at ms ,although i cant see how seeing others fight back can have a negitive effect on anyone,new or old . there is a group ,i wont mention names but to date they have exposed or helped bust at least 200 abusers,this is real, 200! predators removed from the net and in some cases from society. thats not wasted energy. as for the police ?read the posts about the 4 year old that was molested at least ten times ,the perp walked free ,if he lived next door to you wouldnt you want to know he was there?

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

Top
#14498 - 01/21/07 05:07 PM Re: Am I really a Vigilante?
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
in fact they even got boychat shutdown temporarily.

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#14499 - 01/21/07 05:37 PM Re: Am I really a Vigilante?
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Yes, but are those folks (I know of whom you speak) doing something that could get them put in jail? Nope.

A perpetrator getting a restraining order against the person he abused is the exact opposite of the way things should be. Expose perps, tell on them, tell the world about what they're doing. Name names. But don't put yourself in the position of giving the perp an opportunity to play "victim" in a way that will win in court.

Despite the odd miscarriage of justice (as illustrated by the above-mentioned released abuser), the laws most everywhere agree more with us than they do with the perps, because people are sympathetic towards our particular problem. We can't afford to put the status quo in jeopardy.

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

Oprah's resources for male survivors

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#14500 - 01/21/07 05:46 PM Re: Am I really a Vigilante?
Hauser Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
Loc: United States
If I may elaborate:

I have been to his sites as well and although I don't know for SURE that anything that they're advocating is not legal, certainly telling THE TRUTH about someone can't be wrong. It can only empower people to help protect their kids right? Knowledge is power, yes or no?

I doubt very much the Kirk and Rik are in a position to help with advice on this matter since they live in a country without statutes of limitations for these crimes. There really isn't much else one CAN do besides maybe set up a sting on the guy like they do at perverted-justice. I'm assuming that Ken is American however.

Just my thoughts.

Oh, and Ken, no apologies necessary for me, OK? The spirit and intent of your post was good. But I also respect the reasons why the post was removed.


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#14501 - 01/21/07 07:02 PM Re: Am I really a Vigilante?
batcountry Offline
Member

Registered: 09/20/06
Posts: 263
Loc: the ether
i guess from a legal standpoint it could maybe be considered libel if he hasn't been convicted for any crimes. if he has, i dont really see how it is a problem at all because it is just telling what even the courts know as truth. anyway i respect the decisions of the mods for whatever reasons they took, but personally i had no problem with what you were doing, onefastbike.

_________________________
nothing to see here

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#14502 - 01/21/07 08:20 PM Re: Am I really a Vigilante?
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Quote:
Originally posted by Hauser:
If I may elaborate:

I have been to his sites as well and although I don't know for SURE that anything that they're advocating is not legal, certainly telling THE TRUTH about someone can't be wrong. It can only empower people to help protect their kids right? Knowledge is power, yes or no?
Telling the truth is fine. But what will these vigilantes do if the perps decide to get serious in their retaliation? Perps are very serious criminals, and I doubt they would hesitate to retaliate against these groups. Are the people in these groups prepared to put themselves at risk of retaliation? Would they be prepared to risk their families' safety? How about the safety of their perps' families? What if someone acts on their advice and kills or harms a perp? Would they accept responsibility?

I say leave the policing to the police.

Quote:
I doubt very much the Kirk and Rik are in a position to help with advice on this matter since they live in a country without statutes of limitations for these crimes. There really isn't much else one CAN do besides maybe set up a sting on the guy like they do at perverted-justice. I'm assuming that Ken is American however.
I won't speak for either Kirk or Rik, but my understanding is that they are both very heavily involved with the authorities in their advocacy. I mentioned them because I think that they represent the "right" way for survivors to get involved with preventing perps. They fight back by speaking with legislators, volunteering with charities, and assisting other survivors through the justice system. I don't always agree with their opinions, but I believe that both of those guys are doing good work.

There is a group in the States that I really admire called "Bikers Against Child Abuse." These guys are the most unlikely advocates you would expect. They look like a bunch of Hell's Angels, but I think they are one of the best child protection groups out there. Basically, they provide abused kids with a protective and supportive circle of friends. ("if circumstances arise such that we are the only obstacle preventing a child from further abuse, we stand ready to be that obstacle.")

They are rough, but they are very careful to stay on the good side of the fence, and they work closely with the police and child protection agencies. Thing of them as Big Brothers/Big Sisters, but with Harleys and tattoos. You guys might want to check them out.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#14503 - 01/21/07 08:37 PM Re: Am I really a Vigilante?
Brian Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 1563
Loc: Upstate NY
Nobby wrote:
Quote:
Telling the truth is fine. But what will these vigilantes do if the perps decide to get serious in their retaliation? Perps are very serious criminals, and I doubt they would hesitate to retaliate against these groups. Are the people in these groups prepared to put themselves at risk of retaliation? Would they be prepared to risk their families' safety? How about the safety of their perps' families? What if someone acts on their advice and kills or harms a perp? Would they accept responsibility?
This is the main reason why these kinds of posts are not allowed on Male Survivor. We try to keep this site as safe as possible for all our members here. We do not have the resources to handle the retaliation that these groups may inflict upon our site (as was the case just a few months ago).

Brian

_________________________
Recovery is Possible!

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#14504 - 01/21/07 09:40 PM Re: Am I really a Vigilante?
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
I use the silver bullet approach to them.
Inject the opposite of what they are telling
the public with the real truth.

Linking to blogs from perps, and other sites relating to boy lovers is not what this site
is about.

I know that some of these sites have been brought
down in the UK, leading to some prominent boy lovers being caught and jailed, even if its not long enough.

Chris Denning got only 4yrs, with a lifelong history of abusing thousands of boys.
Jonathan King who is still pleading innocence, thinks it is innocent to use rent boys to this day.

OCarrol was given 2.5 years, even though he was the most prominent perp, who has faced jail in
Europe for abusing boys, and he is open about his
feelings, so much so, he had his own website and pedophile ring.

Nothing but a life sentence will stop them from abusing, but that does not seem to happen to them, as they are cunning and experienced in knowing that boys dont tell.

One reason not to attract them here,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

Top
#14505 - 01/21/07 10:13 PM Re: Am I really a Vigilante?
onefastbike Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/17/04
Posts: 84
Loc: Toronto
Firstly I would like to thank everyone for their PMs. They meant alot.

Now allow me to clarify a few points...

1) I do not live in the US. I live in Canada.
2) My perp HAS been convicted for 3 of the acts he performed on me. I was too affraid to tell the whole truth in court (too much shame too)
3) I have done NOTHING illegal.
4) I built my site not to confront my perp, but rather out of frustraion. I had been Googling him for years with no results. I finally realized that his other victims must be doing the same thing. Since I have built the site I have been contacted by several of his past victims.
5) Since I have built my site I have been contacted by 2 of his CURRENT victims (they have info that ONLY a victim of this animal would know)
6) I HAVE contacted the HEAD of the Metro Toronto Police Child Expoitation Unit (the same guy who went to Bill Gates to get the Pedo software written). I have met with him and HE encouraged me to keep up my online pressure. Unless an online persona is found they are limited in what they can do.
7) I have contacted his employer and gave them SOLID and verifiable FACTS
8) I have posted fliers on all the cars in his Condo parking garage and surface lots with FACTS about him.

So what started out as just a way of finding other vicitms of him has evolved in to a very powerful outlet for years of pent up emotions. I have evolved in to an advocate of child safety. I am pouring many hours in to volonteering my time to helping other survivors gain their voice. I have built several websites for other victims and we are now providing a Blog for other victims to post their feelings/experiences.

Anyhow, I'm not angry in any way. I have already stated that I understand that not everyone is in the same place emotionally that I am. I am good with that.

This place is a great resource and has gotten me to where I am now, and I don't want to do anything to damage it.

I run 3 different Forums with over 1400 members so I can understand the actions of the mods.

_________________________
Beware the lollipop of mediocrity. Lick once and you suck forever.

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#14506 - 01/22/07 06:31 AM Re: Am I really a Vigilante?
AshSurvived Offline
Member

Registered: 01/07/07
Posts: 167
Loc: Australia
As a new member I would like to see these prior incidents you are discussing - relating to inviting known child abusers to the board. I really need to see what happened and parse it for myself.

So could somone please PM me the link(s). I would appreciate it. Especially as I am very much in two minds as to whether I should make contact with my abusers or family ever again.

And because my shrink is very much into working with the police (he liases with them closely and knows the officers assigned to sex abuse cold cases on a first name basis and also the entire forensic team and all of the admin and everything). I'd like to know what I might be in for if I was to bring this up in public or confront them directly.

Thanks.

_________________________
"It's your world Dave, I'm just livin' in it"

- Harvey Pekar to David Letterman
(American Splendour)

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#14507 - 01/22/07 12:28 PM Re: Am I really a Vigilante?
onefastbike Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/17/04
Posts: 84
Loc: Toronto
As far as I know all the posts were removed.

As far as contacting your perp, or anything else for that matter, it really depends are where you are at emotionally.

If you would like to see the link to my site send me a PM and I'll give it to you.

_________________________
Beware the lollipop of mediocrity. Lick once and you suck forever.

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#14508 - 01/22/07 02:44 PM Re: Am I really a Vigilante?
Kirk Wayne Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/05
Posts: 499
Loc: Shrewsbury UK
I like the original definition of Vigilante, a was known in Roman times as the "fire watcher" a person that would alert the public to any fires that broke out he/she waould also go on to fight those fires.

I do not class myself as a vigilante but I do consider myself an anti paedophile activist, in short I line myself with people such as Perverted Justice et al. As some of you know I have my own blog and that was recently bombarded by paedo propaganda by convicted molesters and their supporters fortunately I have a load of survivors that read my blog and the perps could not put up with the reasoned arguments that we all put forward, they no lonegr bother my blog but at leat we know who they are and I (as will a growing army of anti paedo supporters)will make life as rough as hell for them. I want them to be scared of who is behind them, who is knocking on their door I want to give back a little bit of the fear that my perps installed in me. What myself and others do is all above the law (we report sites to the hosting companies and the relavent authorties) and we do not condone any physical attacks on perps as that just gives the left wing political supporters more ammunition to try and get laws such as Megans law repeeled.

Take it easy

Kirk
"Lets grab this bull by the horns and swing it about a bit"


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#14509 - 01/22/07 04:23 PM Re: Am I really a Vigilante?
mark250676 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 310
Loc: England
Would it be a good idea to have a

**pro active**

flag on the messages much like the **triggers** one that is used already? I find the mods argument that some people are at a stage in the recovery where it might not be "positive / constructive" very patronising. It's also worth pointing out that it has an amazingly positive effect for some survivors and the communities in which they live.

Of course any action would need to be within the law.

_________________________
Survivor and fighter!

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#138718 - 01/23/07 10:11 AM Re: Am I really a Vigilante? [Re: mark250676]
onefastbike Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/17/04
Posts: 84
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: mark250676
Would it be a good idea to have a

**pro active**

flag on the messages much like the **triggers** one that is used already? I find the mods argument that some people are at a stage in the recovery where it might not be "positive / constructive" very patronising. It's also worth pointing out that it has an amazingly positive effect for some survivors and the communities in which they live.

Of course any action would need to be within the law.


I like this idea alot!

_________________________
Beware the lollipop of mediocrity. Lick once and you suck forever.

Top
#138719 - 01/23/07 10:17 AM Re: Am I really a Vigilante? [Re: Kirk Wayne]
onefastbike Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/17/04
Posts: 84
Loc: Toronto
very well put!


Originally Posted By: Kirk Wayne
I like the original definition of Vigilante, a was known in Roman times as the "fire watcher" a person that would alert the public to any fires that broke out he/she waould also go on to fight those fires.

I do not class myself as a vigilante but I do consider myself an anti paedophile activist, in short I line myself with people such as Perverted Justice et al. As some of you know I have my own blog and that was recently bombarded by paedo propaganda by convicted molesters and their supporters fortunately I have a load of survivors that read my blog and the perps could not put up with the reasoned arguments that we all put forward, they no lonegr bother my blog but at leat we know who they are and I (as will a growing army of anti paedo supporters)will make life as rough as hell for them. I want them to be scared of who is behind them, who is knocking on their door I want to give back a little bit of the fear that my perps installed in me. What myself and others do is all above the law (we report sites to the hosting companies and the relavent authorties) and we do not condone any physical attacks on perps as that just gives the left wing political supporters more ammunition to try and get laws such as Megans law repeeled.

Take it easy

Kirk
"Lets grab this bull by the horns and swing it about a bit"


_________________________
Beware the lollipop of mediocrity. Lick once and you suck forever.

Top
#138839 - 01/24/07 10:09 AM Re: Am I really a Vigilante? [Re: onefastbike]
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: onefastbike
Originally Posted By: mark250676
Would it be a good idea to have a

**pro active**

flag on the messages much like the **triggers** one that is used already? I find the mods argument that some people are at a stage in the recovery where it might not be "positive / constructive" very patronising. It's also worth pointing out that it has an amazingly positive effect for some survivors and the communities in which they live.

Of course any action would need to be within the law.


I like this idea alot!


I don't. The discussion about "Special groups" within Malesurvivor has come up before. There is no place for cliques here. If you've got something to say, say it to all of us, and we will all reply.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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