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#144422 - 03/07/07 09:50 PM I have a question?
Elad 12 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/15/05
Posts: 1176
Loc: on the coast
d


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#144436 - 03/07/07 10:59 PM Re: I have a question? [Re: Elad 12]
Dewey2k Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 3069
Dale,

I think it is the connection itself that has you thinking. We don't often get the chance to talk to others who instinctively understand what we are trying to say without us having to explain it in detail.

You are not alone, Dale.


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#144444 - 03/07/07 11:44 PM Re: I have a question? [Re: Dewey2k]
EGL Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 7821
Hi Dale,

Sounds like you're finally beginning to make normal connections to male relationships. I think all people crave close intimacy with others; intimacy that has nothing to do with sex. It's the thought of being able to be close to someone and have it mean that you like and appreciate them. I'm glad you had that experience this weekend.

_________________________
Eddie

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#144447 - 03/07/07 11:55 PM Re: I have a question? [Re: EGL]
Derdlecar Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/08/05
Posts: 1314
Loc: Ogden Utah, USA
Dale,

As you know, I was at the same retreat this last weekend and I came to this forum with the intent to ask almost the very same thing. I don't consider myself gay and I do enjoy sex with my wife, but at the same time I felt a bond with some of the gay men that were there. I am wondering if it might be that gays are not affraid to get in touch with their feelings and share them with others?

Love ya
Darrel

_________________________
If a man would get his life on track, he must first go back to the place where it was derailed.

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#144457 - 03/08/07 12:21 AM Re: I have a question? [Re: Derdlecar]
Rabbit Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/07/05
Posts: 91
Loc: San Francisco
Dale (and all the rest of my beautiful brothers),

I've spent the better part of the past thirty years pondering my sexuality. In my early twenties, I did my best to be straight, including having a loving (and wonderfully erotic) relationship with a woman. At the core of my being, one thing has remained the same. When I turn to fantasy mind to get over the hump sexually, my mind, body and soul processes images and memories of men not women. So, I place myself in the gay category.

Does this mean that I don't have close bonds with women? No, not at all. I have deep, emotionally rich bonds with women to this day. Sometimes we talk about the pain that cuts us like a knife, other times we talk about the sorry state of men in relationship, other times we go to baseball games.

Do I want to have sex with any of them? Maybe, sometimes - but I choose not to because I know it would be an encounter and not a sustainable relationship. And I know too that I don't want to waste my friendships confusing emotional intimacy and sexual pleasure.

Remember that sexuality is not an on/off switch. It is not the black and white, heaven and hell world that the baptist preacher railed about from the pulpit. Human sexuality is as diverse as all other things human: eye color, hair texture, emotional makeup, taste in jokes. I've come to accept that while I may be bisexual, my life is best lived on the gay side of the fence. I don't have the strength of character or the detachment between love and sex necessary to be too polyamorous, especially if I was to blend loving, ethical relationships with men and women. It's just not safe for this rabbit.

So, what am I saying? I am all right right now. So are you, and you, and you. You are all right in this moment, and this one, and this one too. Accept that emotions are just that - feelings. They don't make rational sense sometimes. We can each choose to accept that it is possible to receive the intimacy we crave from men and women. You may have experienced deep emotional intimacy with another male. (I know I did, many times over the weekend.) That doesn't mean that your are gay. Depending on the closeness of your love-sex-intimacy experiences, you may be a little confused between intimacy and sex. Breathe. You are the same wonderful man you were on March 1st, only a little more allowing of yourself to see your connections with other human beings.

EGL hit the nail on the head a lot more succinctly than I did. A person I really look up too told me once that a sure sign you are learning is confusion. Congratulations, you are learning more about yourself!

I look forward to many more hugs from my new brothers. God knows, I need them.

Love you, brothers.
Randy

_________________________
Your love should never be offered to the mouth of a stranger

Only to someone who has the valor and daring to cut pieces of their soul off with a knife then weave them into a blanket to protect you

There are different wells within us, some fill with each good rain

Others are far, far too deep for that

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#144465 - 03/08/07 12:43 AM Re: I have a question? [Re: Rabbit]
Rambler Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/11/06
Posts: 134
Loc: Planet Earth
I always remind myself that I am a SPIRITUAL being having a human experience.


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#144489 - 03/08/07 08:34 AM Re: I have a question? [Re: Rambler]
Elad 12 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/15/05
Posts: 1176
Loc: on the coast
d


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#144492 - 03/08/07 08:50 AM Re: I have a question? [Re: Elad 12]
Derdlecar Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/08/05
Posts: 1314
Loc: Ogden Utah, USA
( ( ( ( ( (((((DALE))))) ) ) ) ) )

_________________________
If a man would get his life on track, he must first go back to the place where it was derailed.

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#144495 - 03/08/07 09:46 AM Re: I have a question? [Re: Elad 12]
MemoryVault Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 693
Loc: NJ
Dale, so sorry that happened. That guy really took advantage of you. Please don't stop believing that real friends are out there.


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#144498 - 03/08/07 10:41 AM Re: I have a question? [Re: MemoryVault]
Rabbit Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/07/05
Posts: 91
Loc: San Francisco
}{ugs, Dale.

You are trusting yourself and trusting others.

I promise not to violate your trust.

Rabbit.

_________________________
Your love should never be offered to the mouth of a stranger

Only to someone who has the valor and daring to cut pieces of their soul off with a knife then weave them into a blanket to protect you

There are different wells within us, some fill with each good rain

Others are far, far too deep for that

Top
#144805 - 03/10/07 04:37 PM Re: I have a question? [Re: Rabbit]
Bobby Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 1287
Loc: Arizona
Okay, that's it. I'm going to have my own week-end retreat, and all the guys who talk to each other here are going to come and we are all going to get to know each other in person and put faces and real bodies with the hearts and minds we have come to know and love. When I know that two of you are together and talking face to face and smiling and shaking hands and hugging.....well, I'm not jealous exactly, I'm really glad you got to do that, but I always wish I could have been there, too. So, the only solution is to organize my own retreat: The Bobby Week-end of Laughing and Talking. (and non-threatening hugging?) It could happen.

_________________________
I'm healing now, and I wasn't sure I would.




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#144807 - 03/10/07 04:51 PM Re: I have a question? [Re: Bobby]
Elad 12 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/15/05
Posts: 1176
Loc: on the coast
Bobby,

I'll be there!

Dale


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#144826 - 03/10/07 07:16 PM Re: I have a question? [Re: Elad 12]
EGL Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 7821
Sounds like a good time, Bobby. I could use some good times like that.

_________________________
Eddie

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#144893 - 03/11/07 05:26 AM Re: I have a question? [Re: Elad 12]
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Dale, sounds like you have gone far too long without the experience of male company.
Giving and receiving hugs is nothing to do with being or feeling gay, it is a natural thing to do to those you bond with.
Watch the little kids who do it so naturally, they can show us
so much how to live,

ste


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#145426 - 03/14/07 09:20 PM Re: I have a question? [Re: Rabbit]
tartugas Offline
Board Member
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 02/11/07
Posts: 513
Loc: NYC
Dale,

That was a terrible thing that that man did to you, but I'm so glad that you were able to share the story with all of us. It helps us to see you more clearly, and I hope it helps to relieve you of some of that burdensome weight he placed on you.

With regards to the sexuality question, I would also like to stress the difference between emotional intimacy and physical intimacy. The great tragedy for all of us was that at some point in our pasts we have all been vicitmized by people who did not understand the difference between the two. As human beings we share two great hungers in our soul; one is for emotional connection, the other is for physical connection. Though it is certainly possible to live without experiencing either kind of intimacy, I feel that life is far less rich and far less satisfying for the lack of either. Someday I hope we all may get to experience the joy of freely expressing and receiveing both kinds of intimacy without confusion. And perhaps, for some of us, we may get to experience the unique joy that comes when two people find enough trust and love in their connection with one another to combine the physical and the emtional. That is truly a goal we can all dream of for ourselves and for our brothers.

Although it can be easy for some people to confuse the lines between emotional and physical intimacy, it remains true that the two are not the same thing. We can experience deeply fulfilling emotional attachment with others without being sexual, and likewise we can certainly be sexual without being emotional.

_________________________
"I am not a mechanism, an assembly of various sections.
And it is not because the mechanism is working wrongly, that I am ill.
I am ill because of wounds to the soul, to the deep emotional self...."
Healing D.H. Lawrence

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#145433 - 03/14/07 10:01 PM Re: I have a question? [Re: tartugas]
Elad 12 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/15/05
Posts: 1176
Loc: on the coast
d


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#145438 - 03/14/07 10:35 PM Re: I have a question? [Re: Elad 12]
dean1320 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/06/07
Posts: 129
Loc: Atlanta, GA , US
Where are you located?, if i can come and not spend a thousand dollars, i'll be there too. ijust dont have that money right now. but i need fellowship, not a bunch of elitism, i feel. there are people here that can't afford to go to a weekend retreat. yes, i'm a little pissed off that the fact that upcoming in may, i could drive an hour but i'm not welcome because i'm not in level ii recovery. i have seen therapists for freaking 7 yrs. it makes me pissed because so many of my brothers will be there, however, once again "you're not included" . Dale pm , me i hope you are near georgia. but maybe we can work it all out. Peace

_________________________
NEVER QUIT .

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#145440 - 03/14/07 11:15 PM Re: I have a question? [Re: dean1320]
Derdlecar Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/08/05
Posts: 1314
Loc: Ogden Utah, USA
I have found that I really enjoy both physical intimacy and emotional intimacy but if I had to do with out one or the other, I would much rather do with out the physical intimacy. Reason being simply this: I find emotional intimacy to be much more satisfying. The emotional intimacy reaches to a place deep inside me and touches the spot that I was really trying to get to when I "allowed" people to use me sexually.

And that is probably the most important thing I have learned in the nearly year and a half that I have been coming here to this discussion board.

Love ya
Darrel



Edited by Derdlecar (03/14/07 11:18 PM)
_________________________
If a man would get his life on track, he must first go back to the place where it was derailed.

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#145461 - 03/15/07 12:31 AM Re: I have a question? [Re: Derdlecar]
mack Offline
Guest

Registered: 03/07/07
Posts: 101
Loc: new mexico
Weekend retreat? Male company? How I long for the company of like souls. How I wish to be surrounded by those who can understand my pain.. and my humor.

_________________________
mack

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#147131 - 03/26/07 08:27 PM Re: I have a question? [Re: Elad 12]
halryan Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/26/07
Posts: 7
Loc: Utah
Hey Dale,

I too was at the 4 springs weekend. I think I'm the guy who did the "walking toward" boundary exercise with you.
Anyway, I think that when someone makes genuine emotional contact with anyone it can be emotionally, spiritually, and even physically arousing. Doesn't necessarily mean you're gay...not that that's a bad thing...I'm gay.
Just enjoy the idea that you're learning to connect with people for now, and sort out the sexual identity stuff later.
Congrats on your progress!

_________________________
...stay tuned for a profound quote in this space...all the best, Ryan

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#147149 - 03/26/07 09:48 PM Re: I have a question? [Re: halryan]
Elad 12 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/15/05
Posts: 1176
Loc: on the coast
d


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#147256 - 03/27/07 02:05 PM Re: I have a question? [Re: Elad 12]
DeafDavid Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/17/06
Posts: 38
Loc: NM
Dale (and all the others that posted here)

Thank you for starting this thread Dale, it has helped me as well, reading about things I also relate to and have questions about. As you know, I too was trained to be used since I was very young and it continued until last year when I was 16. What has bothered me is why I continued to allow it to go on after I was older and knew it was all wrong. As Derdlecar said, I now know I was allowing it not so much for the physical but rather for the emotional intimacy. I did although sometimes enjoy, to a degree, the physical sensations I did receive. I have never felt emotional intimacy in my whole life and I guess I have spent my life trying to get it whatever it took. I have also been wondering if it is possible to be "part-gay" because of a few things that has happened to me lately.

My situation has all changed since I was removed from my home, school, belongings etc etc after it all was brought to light. I now live in a new home, surrounder by new people. At school, I have made a new friend which has me really confused. I guess I have really not had a true friend ever in the past so it is confusing. We are in a class together and it started with me helping him in that class which he has trouble in. Now after quite awhile, he continues our friendship, coming over to my house and including me in several of his activities. The whole thing just seems so normal that I have problems with it. At first I thought that he liked me because I helped him with his homework but he still does even when I no longer need to do that. What confuses me now is why he would like me now I no longer do things for him. I know that makes no sense but I still feel it deep inside. I keep trying to do other things for him so he will remain my friend.

Well I do wonder if I am gay or what because, as Rabbit said, I too process images of men when I turn to fantasy during those personal times. I even wonder if that could be why I am drawn to my new friend, or maybe that is why he is drawn to me?? A while ago, I managed to gather up the courage it took to approach a gay support group here at the campus. I found a couple of guys that were so very willing to chat with me (and that is sometimes hard for others as I am deaf). They took all the time I needed to chat with them. I still don't have an answer if I am 100% gay or what but you know as Derdlecar noticed, the gay men just seemed so much more NOT afraid to be in touch of their feelings and to so openly share with me, I was impressed.

Well I have rambled long enough. I guess the answer to the basic sexual orientation question is not the main thing in my life anyway. Time will sort that out I guess anyway. The bigger issue here I think is how we all learn to relate to other men in our daily lives. I just hope that someday I can learn to be more comfortable in my own skin.

David


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#147267 - 03/27/07 02:55 PM Re: I have a question? [Re: DeafDavid]
philobat Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/31/07
Posts: 293
Loc: California
One of the worst side effects of CSA is a common confusion regarding sexual orientation. Although I have found for me, my attraction is more towards men. I have had relationships with both men and women and at various times I was attracted to both.

I have found for me, that deep down inside is this measuring dial that points toward men. That is just for me. And I found that whenever I listen to myself and not the views of anyone else that clarity for me will rise to the surface and the confusion sinks to the bottom and into obscurity.

I know who I am by listening within and not comparing what I hear with the opinions of people, religion, family and anyone else who has not walked at least one mile in my shoes!

Just my $0.02 worth!

btw, being attracted to men does not define who I am as a person- it merely suggests that men give rise to my nether regions- nothing more.





Edited by philobat (03/27/07 02:58 PM)

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#147296 - 03/27/07 04:27 PM Re: I have a question? [Re: philobat]
cbfull Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/26/07
Posts: 386
Loc: Ohio
I understand where both of you are coming from.

I have a friend now who I was doing stuff for and giving him things because I was sure he was going to reject me as a "goofy gay guy with wierd problems and emotions".

Our friendship has evolved to the point where I am constantly amazed at how genuine his interest in our friendship is. He did finally make a remark about me giving him stuff all the time, and he said, "I don't have anything to give to you." I replied, "I don't want anything." I later confessed to him that a "small" part of it is an insecurity.

I half expected him to be uncomfortable with my insecurity, but just the opposite happened, it made us even better friends. I could feel that our friendship had gotten stronger that day. He came up just to sit with me and didn't really have anything to say. He just wanted to hang out.

I keep finding myself amazed at the fact that the more sincere and genuine I am with him, the more he values my friendship.

So for your situation, DeafDavid, it sounds like you are developing a strong friendship with this person, and I can understand how you are confused as to why he would want your friendship when you feel you have nothing to "give". If your friendship is all he wants, you already are "giving" just by being his friend.

Craig



Edited by cbfull (03/28/07 08:02 AM)
_________________________
Craig

Guilt and shame have never done any of us any good at all.

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#147339 - 03/27/07 09:57 PM Re: I have a question? [Re: cbfull]
Derdlecar Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/08/05
Posts: 1314
Loc: Ogden Utah, USA
I was 10 years old and had no friends. Nobody loved Darrel except for the neighbor kid and the taxi driver and the only reason they loved him was because he had a couple of warm places to put it.

So what did I learn from all this? I learned that I was gay. I wasn't really but it took me years to figure that part out. So here I was, very confused by my sexual orientation or should I say lack of sexual orientation. And all this time, all I really wanted was someone to love me and hold me close and value me, wanting nothing in return.

So here I am now, I still desire and enjoy close friendship with men but leave the sex out of it please; it has a way of making things complicated.

Love ya
Darrel

_________________________
If a man would get his life on track, he must first go back to the place where it was derailed.

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#147710 - 03/29/07 10:59 PM Re: I have a question? [Re: Derdlecar]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Dale,

Another one I'm dropping into at a late stage...oh well.

As some of you already know, when I was 13 the abuser managed to trick my best friend Stevie and I into meeting him and going to his house - I was already doing whatever he wanted whenever he said, and Stevie was threatened. Neither of us knew what would follow. That lasted for a year, until the abuse finally ended for both of us, when I was 14 and Stevie was 13. But by then we were devastated boys with no boundaries any longer; our friendship soon took a sexual turn of its own and that continued for two more years.

I didn't realize it at the time, but the effects of this on me were colossal. I figured that I should have been able to stop things or "save" Stevie when we were being abused together, and during our later relationship I dreaded the possibility that I was betraying him. I was a year older, and when he and I got up to no good in the usual boyhood mischief the adventure was usually his idea and then I had to figure out how we would get away with it. But this time I was powerless and I just could not forgive myself. I drifted away from friends, stayed by myself in school, and withdrew from most school activities, all because i feared becoming closely attached to yet another friend whom I would betray or be unable to protect. That continued on into college and adulthood, and I bet I can count on one hand, with a few fingers left over, the number of close friends I ever allowed myself to have.

Since I started to deal with my issues I think one of the most amazing experiences I have had (and there are many) has been regaining - or should I say discovering - the ability to relate fully with another man without fearing betrayal and sexual catastrophe, one way or another. I found out that I can feel intensely about another man as my friend and become very involved with him emotionally, and still maintain good boundaries.

I was finally able to understand that all my fears and dread went straight back to a boy's inability to understand what had really happened those many years ago. We were just two abused, frightened and very confused boys. We had no one to talk to or relate to except each other, we trusted each other, and we had gotten each other through a year of horrific abuse. We needed each other, and yes, we were in love - so we expressed that by doing what we knew.

It was never true that I had betrayed Stevie, and it had never been within my power to protect him. Once I understood that and trusted it to be true, I could reclaim my wholeness as a man - meaning I could begin to relate to other guys as a whole person, without Little Larry putting us on Red Alert every time I had feelings for someone as a friend.

Dale, my guess is that this is what happened to you at the retreat. That is, it wasn't a matter of whether these other men were straight or gay. Rather, in the context of the retreat you could have faith in the fact that they were safe. You could have the feeling that Darrel describes:

Originally Posted By: Derdlecar
All I really wanted was someone to love me and hold me close and value me, wanting nothing in return.


and actually run with it! You could relate to them as all of Dale, not as just part of him, with the rest of you at battle stations.

Does that sound like something to work with? In any case, it's wonderful you had this experience. I hope you can develop it further, in whatever direction is right for you.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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