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#140934 - 02/09/07 10:07 PM Re: something i found this morning [Re: batcountry]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16264
This is a worthwhile discussion, guys, but can we take it down a notch?

I was quite interested in the statistics you quoted Nobs. I'm wondering tho, if there is a direct correlation between the death penalty, or lack thereof, and the lower murder rate per capita. It does not necessarily follow that the one is the cause of the other. There may be many other contributing factors such as per capita income, government involvement in education and anti poverty programs, etc.

Did your source for the stats enlarge on any of these issues?

I'm not arguing with the conclusions you draw, just questioning.

Lots of love,

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#140935 - 02/09/07 10:11 PM Re: something i found this morning *DELETED* [Re: Hauser]
jacobtk Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/08/03
Posts: 527
Post deleted by jacobtk

_________________________
Every day I die again, and again I’m reborn/Every day I have to find the courage/To walk out into the street/With arms out/Got a love you can’t defeat/Neither down nor out/There’s nothing you have that I need/I can breathe/Breathe now - U2

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#140943 - 02/09/07 10:57 PM Re: something i found this morning [Re: jacobtk]
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
John I think the relationships are debated at length.

Personally, I think Canada has a far more progressive approach to social policy than the US, and our justice system is focussed on rehabilitating criminals versus punishing them. We also have much broader social welfare programs such as health care and programs for disadvantaged youth.

European countries are socially more similar to Canada than the US, so their lower crime rates are probably for similar reasons.

But this still begs the question, what is the US doing wrong? It is obvious that the death penalty does not deter crime. There were more criminals executed during the 1990's than in any other 10 year period in American history, and the US still has the highest murder rate of the G8 countries.

Take a look at the income levels of the people being executed in the US, and I think you will see what the death penalty is really all about. I think your state and federal governments are using the death penalty to distract US citizens from the fact that there are a LOT of people in your country who are living in 3rd-world conditions. Crime in the US is being caused by the faulty or non-existent social policies that are failing to help these people. Then, when these people commit crimes out of desperation, frustration or a simple desire to gain some type of power, they are executed. And now the government wants to broaden its ability to execute them.

If I were an American, I would ask myself, why does the government want the ability to execute even more American citizens?






Edited by Nobbynobs (02/09/07 11:00 PM)
_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#140952 - 02/10/07 12:25 AM Re: something i found this morning [Re: Nobbynobs]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
i read every response on this thread please point out where i called anyone a name, or insane. whos attacking who? i dont think we should screw up this thread anymore.

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#140955 - 02/10/07 01:29 AM Re: something i found this morning [Re: shadowkid]
Hauser Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
Loc: United States
Well WHY the U.S. has the highest murder rate is a very interesting thing to bring up, and I suspect that I might have an answer, although I would have a hard time finding the records.

As we all know, America is the #1 consumer of illegal drugs. As I recall, during the early 20th century, the murder rate per capita in the U.S. was level and wavered very little until the advent of prohibition in the 1920's, and the crime and corruption that ensued shot the homicide rate through the roof. After prohibition was repealed, the national homicide rate fell back to the pre-prohibition levels.

Then comes the Reagan Administration and it's reinvigorated War on Drugs and wouldn't you know it? The murder rate is through the roof again.

I ran across a VERY interesting graph that shows the homicide rate during and in between these time periods. I shall endeavor to find it, (a government source if you can believe it LOL).


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#140956 - 02/10/07 01:32 AM Re: something i found this morning [Re: shadowkid]
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11056
Loc: Denver, CO
Well, I read this thread and thought again and again. I certainly have my $0.02 worth like anyone else.

When I view the likes of Ted Bundy, Jeff Dahmer and John Wayne Gacy, I can see where the death penalty certainly has its place. These men have proven in their individual ways that they are deadly to a (more or less) civilized society. For their numerous murders, they deserve to reap what they sowed. They didn't deserve to be studied, and they didn't deserve to be sentenced to death row to die of natural causes. Whether pyschotic or just plain evil, they earned the death penalty, end of story.

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#140968 - 02/10/07 07:46 AM Re: something i found this morning [Re: FormerTexan]
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Murder and other crimes are indeed down to social inadequacy and perceived isolation.
I think the death penalty is barbaric and fiercely oppose it for anything as it is not a deterrent and could lead to murder to keep the victim from telling.

Far better to let the murderer or psycho rot in a jail knowing they will never be free to do it again.
Whilst we have social deprivation and disaffection in society then it is bound to have violence with it,

ste


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#141269 - 02/12/07 02:44 PM Re: something i found this morning [Re: lostandfound]
philobat Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/31/07
Posts: 293
Loc: California
Very interesting article, indeed. Bat, you have some great points to ponder!

As children we often took on the entire responsibility of the abuse events that occurred and to this end to add the responsibility to a child's plate the death of the perp is something I would not want to see happen.

To add to capital punishment the caveat of the perp killing the child in order to be eligible for capital punishment is disgusting and immoral.

If these states want a punishment that could lead to lower statistics of molestations of children, then life in prison would be an adequate punishment.

I also like the DNA tagging of a molester so they can be tracked via satellite and be made miserable where they go. Then again this opens the door to big brother eventually tagging everyone, so I don't mean to open this as a can of worms!

The statistical facts remain that the death penalty does not deter criminals at all and appears to me to be almost an assisted suicide for people in pain or wanting out of this life.

Perpetrators should be made to live out long lives of hard labor camps and be reminded daily of what they have done to the innocent and any money paid from this labor should go directly to an abused children's foundation.

-Philobat


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#141280 - 02/12/07 03:46 PM Re: something i found this morning [Re: Hauser]
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: Hauser
Well WHY the U.S. has the highest murder rate is a very interesting thing to bring up, and I suspect that I might have an answer, although I would have a hard time finding the records.

As we all know, America is the #1 consumer of illegal drugs. As I recall, during the early 20th century, the murder rate per capita in the U.S. was level and wavered very little until the advent of prohibition in the 1920's, and the crime and corruption that ensued shot the homicide rate through the roof. After prohibition was repealed, the national homicide rate fell back to the pre-prohibition levels.

Then comes the Reagan Administration and it's reinvigorated War on Drugs and wouldn't you know it? The murder rate is through the roof again.

I ran across a VERY interesting graph that shows the homicide rate during and in between these time periods. I shall endeavor to find it, (a government source if you can believe it LOL).


I agree. The drug laws in the US are wreaking havoc.

It reminds me of the part in the Bible where Jesus says that sin wasn't invented until mankind got laws, and then fell into sin because they couldn't resist breaking the laws.





Edited by Nobbynobs (02/12/07 03:47 PM)
_________________________
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- Mel Brooks

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