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#140140 - 02/03/07 11:53 AM Catholic perspectives on CSA
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Hi,

I am going to be writing a theological paper (in preparation for my Confession) on Catholic perspectives on CSA. My main theme is going to focussing on Catholic victims and the role that sinfulness and forgiveness have on their recovery. I will be using the case of St. Maria Goretti as my basis for my theme.

I am interested in hearing the perspectives of other Catholics on this. If any Catholics (or anyone from a Trinitarian "Catholic" Church such as Lutherans or Anglicans) would like to enter into an email discussion with me on the subject, please drop me a PM.

Thanks,

Nobby



Edited by Nobbynobs (02/03/07 11:54 AM)
_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#140180 - 02/03/07 03:43 PM Re: Catholic perspectives on CSA [Re: Nobbynobs]
froggy12 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/06
Posts: 527
Loc: Marlboro, MA 01752
I was 14 or 15 when I was raped. No idea who perp was. I went to confession and the priest said I was not at fault, hence no sin. Of course he was a Harvard grad and perhaps more enlightened (pun). This was in an era when sex discussion for teens was like discussing life on Mars. Unknown. A certain 'cloud of unknowing' persisted, id est 'jansenism.'

later

froggy

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#140189 - 02/03/07 04:04 PM Re: Catholic perspectives on CSA [Re: froggy12]
reality2k4 Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Too late at night here, but I will post a piece on a boy of catholic religion, and thoughts of forgiveness etc.,

ste

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Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#140213 - 02/03/07 07:04 PM Re: Catholic perspectives on CSA [Re: reality2k4]
froggy12 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/06
Posts: 527
Loc: Marlboro, MA 01752
De profundis clamavi ad te Domine (From the depths, I cried to you, Lord!) and the Lord yelled back "Later, I'm busy. Bush is at it again. I'll get back to you." And he did.

froggy

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#140243 - 02/03/07 11:35 PM Re: Catholic perspectives on CSA [Re: froggy12]
froggy12 Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/06
Posts: 527
Loc: Marlboro, MA 01752
Maria Goretti is nice, but in Uganda in the mid-1800s, the king was of the Islamic persuasion; he was annoyed when several of his pages were Baptized Christians and refused to participate in his homosexual activities. They retained their chastity but were burned alive.

"Carl Lwanga (or Charles Lwanga) (1865 – June 3, 1886) was a Ugandan Roman Catholic catechist martyred for his faith and revered as a saint in the Catholic Church. He was born in the kingdom of Buganda in the southern part of modern Uganda, and served as a page in the court of King Mwanga II.

Mwanga began to insist Christian converts abandon their new faith, and executed many Catholic and Anglicans between 1885 and 1887; many of them were officials in the court of the king or otherwise very close to him, including Lwanga. He protected his companions, ages 13-30, from the immoral acts and homosexual demands of King Mwanga. After a massacre of Anglicans in 1885 the court's resident Catholic priest, Joseph Mukasa, reproached the king for the deed. Mwanga had Mukasa beheaded and arrested all of his followers. Lwanga took up Mukasa's duties, and secretly baptized those of his pupils who had only been catechumens. Carl Lwanga and 21 other Catholics were burned alive on June 3, 1886.

Carl Lwanga and his companions in death were canonized in 1964 by Pope Paul VI. Although the Anglicans were not canonized (as non-Catholics, this would have been impossible), their martyrdom was recognized by the Pope."

Wikipedia, a thousand thanks again!

Idi Amin Dada (his full name) was not unique.


froggy

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#140247 - 02/04/07 12:29 AM Re: Catholic perspectives on CSA [Re: froggy12]
Mark Antony Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/03/07
Posts: 34
Loc: Michigan
Hi Nobby what diocese are you in? I never had to do any paper in preparation for reception of any sacrament. Nor did my wife when she converted. I find it refreshing that the church is as interested in making sure the catechumens really understand the teaching of the church they are about to join. As far as the sex abuse issue and confession. I have to say the requirements for an act to be a sin you must 1. know that is wrong 2. Do it willingly knowing it is wrong. Therefore a victim does not have any sin in sex abuse. A victim usually does feel guilty because they do not understand who is at fault. Forgiveness is an important part of healling I feel it is a must for a victim too fully heal otherwise the burden carried by the victim will soon consume him and keep him from developing normaly. The have and anger will make a victims life dark and he will not be able to have normal relationships with anyone. He must forgive or be eaten alive by the pain and wounds created by the CSA

Mark Antony


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#140248 - 02/04/07 12:32 AM Re: Catholic perspectives on CSA [Re: Mark Antony]
Mark Antony Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/03/07
Posts: 34
Loc: Michigan
Nobbynobs Welcome aboard We need good men in the church

Mark Antony


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#140277 - 02/04/07 09:10 AM Re: Catholic perspectives on CSA [Re: Mark Antony]
Nobbynobs Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Hi Mark, I am in Toronto.

The paper is not a requirement of my Catechism, just something that I am doing on my own. I don't know where I will end up with it, but I love writing and it is how I explore my life, so it is part of my growth. If that makes any sense at all. ;\)

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#140565 - 02/07/07 03:31 AM Re: Catholic perspectives on CSA [Re: Nobbynobs]
zen-boy Offline
New Here

Registered: 01/23/07
Posts: 35
For some people, spirituality is a powerful tool for healing. Perhaps it is so with you.

I wonder, however, whether an emphasis on "Catholic survivors" will lead you where you want to go. I am particularly concerned with your questions about "the role that sinfulness and forgiveness have on their recovery."

Carl Lwanga and Maria Goretti (as well as others) can provide you with examples. However, the most powerful teaching on sinfulness and forgiveness will come from your own experiences. What have you learned about sin as an explanation for harm and evil in the world, in this case sexual abuse? What does forgiveness mean to you, in light of these examples and others? How can forgiveness be something real in your life and not just a quaint notion or something "heavenly" reserved for saints?

May you find what you truly seek and that which will give you abiding happiness and peace.


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#140575 - 02/07/07 07:32 AM Re: Catholic perspectives on CSA [Re: froggy12]
Mark Antony Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/03/07
Posts: 34
Loc: Michigan
Froggy12

Remember sometimes the LORDS answer is not right now. We need to learn what he has to teach before he brings us out of the desert . As far as Zen-boys statement I think that different religions put there own spin on things and the Catholic spin may cause the Catholics to have a different reaction. I hope that all religions put the sin where it belongs, on the perp. That leaves the victim to deal with the forgiveness part. It is very difficult to go through the forgiveness process but it is also very nessesary for healing


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#140582 - 02/07/07 09:29 AM Re: Catholic perspectives on CSA [Re: Mark Antony]
froggy12 Offline
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Registered: 11/12/06
Posts: 527
Loc: Marlboro, MA 01752
I've been to the desert and back, several times.

Hmm. A reverse Augustine: not now Lord, not now.

We can not use today's mentality to understand 50 years ago.

'Faith without good works is a dead faith.' So I do good works without complaint, it is my faith that I wonder about. Yet if God is ( I am who am ) - my wondering is understood, so I don't really worry a lot. Ainsi-soit-il.

ribbit

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#140585 - 02/07/07 10:31 AM Re: Catholic perspectives on CSA [Re: froggy12]
Nobbynobs Offline
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Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: froggy12
I don't really worry a lot. Ainsi-soit-il.

ribbit


Let it be.

That's kind of my feeling on the whole thing as well. However, sometimes I just feel a need to ask questions.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#140645 - 02/07/07 06:56 PM Re: Catholic perspectives on CSA [Re: Mark Antony]
Halibut Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/29/06
Posts: 228
Loc: Alaska
Hi Nobby,

I'm a Catholic priest, don't have all the answers, but let me offer you some ideas.

CSA ia like any evil thing people do to one another, it is a moral evil for the perp, not so for the victim. It is a violation of the victim.

I was abused by a religious and it is the Church's responsibility to take care of those victimized by those it placed in leadership positions, even if it did so unknowingly put kids in harms way. I'ts also the Church's responsibility to acknowledge what has happened in the past and to prevent it in the future.

For me my spirituality has been my salvation-without it I don't where I'd be. I had a great prayer-experience of God's acceptance of me (I was feeling guilty about being abused) and my prayer life gives me strength to keep going and face honestly the at times painful realities of my life. In the long run I guess being a victim has helped me as a priest to seek integrity since my abuser wore the mantle of religious leadership and used it to abuse me and others.

Where is God in this? I'd love to take it all away, but to use what may be a trite saying to some, "I asked God to take away my burden. He didn't. God strengthened my shoulders to carry it".

Hope this helps w/ your answer. Hal


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#140713 - 02/08/07 02:39 AM Re: Catholic perspectives on CSA [Re: Halibut]
froggy12 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/06
Posts: 527
Loc: Marlboro, MA 01752
Yeah, I got hit in the seminary as well. Not a nice experience. It depended on the Rector's view of the individual. If you were 'manly' you couldn't have been the perp. Guess what Rev., fucked over twice and perps, my peers laughed the whole time.
So much for Teresian spirituality...too far up the Ascent of Mt Carmel and lost in the clouds.

Then on the outside was coming home from friend's house - was followed, knocked out and woke with a dick in my mouth. I began to ask God if he/she/it had something against me? Nothing personal was the reply. Suffice to say I can be a bit cynical.
So all I can say is "show me the way God; don't let me trip too often." (Thanks Merton)

froggy

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#140742 - 02/08/07 12:37 PM Re: Catholic perspectives on CSA [Re: froggy12]
Nobbynobs Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Guys, could we not make this a clergy abuse thread? I am trying to work through my entry into the Church and I don't really want this thread to descend into a discussion of abuse by priests.

Thanks

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#140758 - 02/08/07 03:25 PM Re: Catholic perspectives on CSA [Re: Nobbynobs]
philobat Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/31/07
Posts: 293
Loc: California
Hey Nobby-

Unfortunately the Catholics brought this on themselves. It is not a very good topic to post here because of all the abuse that has happened and they way it has been covered up and glossed over. How the Church HAS protected pedophile priests and only until recently have they begun to make financial amends to victims of these horrible crimes.

Posting any topic about Catholicism is likely to illicit similar responses.

While I was lucky to not have been abused by priests, far more survivors have not been so lucky and I support their responses and so should you.

I wish you the best in your endeavor for your paper on this topic, just remember- you asked for responses!



Edited by philobat (02/08/07 03:27 PM)

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#140766 - 02/08/07 03:44 PM Re: Catholic perspectives on CSA [Re: philobat]
Halibut Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/29/06
Posts: 228
Loc: Alaska
Hi Nobby,

Didn't mean to turn this into a clergy abuse thing, was just trying to express how my experience of spirituality and God has been my help and strength.

Hope your reasearch goes well.
Hal


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#140772 - 02/08/07 04:18 PM Re: Catholic perspectives on CSA [Re: philobat]
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: philobat
ey Nobby-

Unfortunately the Catholics brought this on themselves. It is not a very good topic to post here because of all the abuse that has happened and they way it has been covered up and glossed over. How the Church HAS protected pedophile priests and only until recently have they begun to make financial amends to victims of these horrible crimes.

Posting any topic about Catholicism is likely to illicit similar responses.

While I was lucky to not have been abused by priests, far more survivors have not been so lucky and I support their responses and so should you.

I wish you the best in your endeavor for your paper on this topic, just remember- you asked for responses!


I can't believe what I am reading.

I wanted to have a discussion about something that was troubling me as a Catholic. I did not request a discussion on abuse by priests, and my request to end that discussion was because I wanted to return to my original theme.

What do you mean by "Posting any topic about Catholicism is likely to illicit (sic) similar responses?" Are you saying that according to you, Catholics are not welcome to discuss their faith at Malesurvivor without talking about sexual abuse by priests?

How dare you accuse me of not supporting survivors of clergy abuse? I made a request to have the thread returned to my original topic because the abuse by priests topic was not helping me with my problem. This was not a support thread. It was a discussion of a theological issue.

You are new, so I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and I am not going to formally complain to the moderator about your response. However, if you want to continue to participate in this, or any of the other spirituality threads, I suggest you stop with the attacks on other faiths. With your one post, you have established a very hostile environment for Catholic survivors who might want to discuss their faith on this forum.











Edited by Nobbynobs (02/08/07 05:19 PM)
_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#141040 - 02/10/07 06:12 PM Re: Catholic perspectives on CSA [Re: Nobbynobs]
philobat Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/31/07
Posts: 293
Loc: California
Nobby- I did not ever intend and nor did I read into my response that Catholics are not welcome. I did not single out any particular faith, religion or spiritual belief system as being unworthy or un-welcome in any way whatsoever.

I find it quite clear in my response to your thread that many survivors have had very bad and abusive experiences with religion and with all that is coming out about the catholic priests, the church and its clergy to expect elicit responses directly related to each survivors experiences.

You had asked that the thread not be considered as a venue for survivors venting their abuse experiences as it was not your intent when you posted it.

However, I have found that each of us has a voice directly related to our own experiences and how we may respond to a post regardless of its original intent, cannot be controlled.

I have read many of your posts and spoken to others on here that feel you constantly talk down to them in a very condescending way and appear to be very controlling in your posts and responses and then you suddenly are shocked, appalled and make threats when you are called on it.

Please feel free to turn me in to a moderator. I do not think upon reading my responses that a moderator will see that I have in any way attempted to exclude you or your beliefs from anything.

And for the record, many of the responses to your thread DID INFACT, illicit and trigger responses from more than me.

And it doesn't take someone new to see that.

And if a moderator finds me to be inappropriate- all he/she need do is delete my account. It would NOT be the first time I was forced to shut up and not have a voice!

I do wish you well. We are a sensitive bunch and have every right to be.

And don't say how dare I as if this is something new. You have been at this a while.

Love,

Philobat

And btw, thanks a lot for laying the whole hostile environment for catholics on me and my one post!



Edited by philobat (02/10/07 06:21 PM)

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#141049 - 02/10/07 07:39 PM Re: Catholic perspectives on CSA [Re: philobat]
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
I'm sorry if I have offended you. In the future I will try to take your sensitivities into account when I begin discussions about my faith.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#141055 - 02/10/07 08:49 PM Re: Catholic perspectives on CSA [Re: Nobbynobs]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16264
It really makes me wonder why the mere reference to the above mentioned denomination here in the spirituality forum, in a thread that has nothing whatever to do with the abuse issues surrounding that denomination, has made some here feel so threatened to the point where the need is felt to express hostility and anger.

It has me baffled.

I'd like to suggest some things.

First, If a thread such as this triggers the anger response in you, stop and ask yourself honestly what it is that is making you angry. Psychologists tell us that in instances like this it is quite often the case that something said hits a lot closer to home than a person cares to admit, and hits issues we don't want to face. I have found that to be true in my own life. Something the other guy said hits me in a place I'd rather not be hit so instead of examining that, I react, and there has been a time or two (perhaps more) when I've made and ass of myself over it instead of facing my own demons.

Second, this thread had nothing whatever to do with the abuse issues of the Roman Catholic church, as bad as those abuse issues are (no one here will dispute that). Is it too much to ask that when a person posts that he keeps his post to the subject matter or the originating post of the thread? It's only common courtesy that anyone would like to receive in response to their own posts.

Third, if anyone wants to have a uninhibited discussion of these issues, take it to the unmoderated forum where there is more latitude allowed in the discussion and responses.

So come on guys, can we do the right thing here and be a little more congenial?




Edited by walkingsouth (02/16/07 03:52 AM)
_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#141065 - 02/10/07 10:11 PM Re: Catholic perspectives on CSA [Re: Nobbynobs]
outis Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/27/03
Posts: 2260
Loc: Maryland USA
Nobby,

I'm Roman Catholic. I've struggled with forgiveness quite a bit. My worst struggle at the moment is the attempt to separate forgiveness from restoration of a relationship. And the best thought on that which helps me right now is that Jesus prayed for forgiveness for those who crucified Him, yet didn't wear a crown of thorns before Pilate ever again after Easter. He forgave, and that did not require a return to the relationship in its abusive form.

Sinfulness? I know I acted sinfully at times, whether "prompted" by my reactions to CSA or not. The fact that I chose rightly at times, even before starting to recover, proves that I was capable. I do not accept responsibility for the actions of others, particularly the actions of perps, nor do I believe that God would hold me responsible for them. Still it is I, and I alone, who is responsible for the things I have done through my life.

Thanks,

Joe


_________________________
"Telemachos, your guest is no discredit to you. I wasted no time in stringing the bow, and I did not miss the mark. My strength is yet unbroken…"—The Odyssey, translated by W.H.D. Rouse

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#141076 - 02/10/07 11:17 PM Re: Catholic perspectives on CSA [Re: outis]
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Joe,

Thanks for writing.

On forgiveness, I think the Church recognises a difference between forgiving your perp, I.E., recognising that he has fallen into sin, and reconciling with your perp, I.E., actively entering into a positive relationship with him.

I think forgiveness is our responsibility as Christians, and it should be something that we should all work towards. This does not mean that we should rush to forgive, but forgiveness should be a goal in our recovery. I won't go into a definition of forgiveness because that has been beaten to death in other threads.

Reconciliation, on the other hand, is trickier. Personally, I am willing to help my perp with his healing and rehabilitation, but I am not about to approach him and offer my help. I fear that he would only lash out at me and I would end up getting hurt. Pearls before swine. However, if my perp showed remorse and approached me, either directly or through a 3rd party, to ask my forgiveness, I don't think I would be able to deny him that. We never know what form Jesus will take when he comes to us as a thief in the night.

I agree with your interpretation of sinfulness, and someone has actually sent me the relevant sections of the CCC where the Vatican has clearly stated that the sin in rape lies with the rapist. My dilemma is in understanding my role in what followed. I kept quiet about my abuser, and he went on to abuse other children. I know that I kept silent out of fear, and due to the PTSD, but I still felt guilt over it. Personally, I have resolved this guilt through confessing it to a friend, but I think that it would be a great help to Catholic survivors if the Church provided a means by which they could identify and address their sins as part of their recovery.

Too often I think these survivors flee the Church for fear of being judged. I think that this is due to two things: 1) a lack of clergy/laity who have experience in dealing with CSA, and 2) the poor job that the Catholic community has done of communicating the Vatican's position on rape and its aftermath. The second one is particularly distressing, because the new Catechism is very supportive of rape survivors. I think that it could be a very useful healing tool for Catholic survivors.

Ideally, if I do finish this article, I hope that it will serve as a guide to Catholic survivors so that they can differentiate between their sins and their perp's, and, through doing so, regain a portion of their faith and begin their recovery. I am going to be meeting with a priest this week to see if he will agree to co-author it with me.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#141094 - 02/11/07 10:17 AM Re: Catholic perspectives on CSA [Re: Nobbynobs]
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
This is the section of the CCC that deals with rape:

"2356 Rape is the forcible violation of the sexual intimacy of another person. It does injury to justice and charity. Rape deeply wounds the respect, freedom, and physical and moral integrity to which every person has a right. It causes grave damage that can mark the victim for life. It is always an intrinsically evil act. Graver still is the rape of children committed by parents (incest) or those responsible for the education of the children entrusted to them."

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#141175 - 02/11/07 07:18 PM Re: Catholic perspectives on CSA [Re: Mark Antony]
michael Joseph Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/11/01
Posts: 2719
Loc: Virginia
I have problems with a church that keeps perps alive, when the cardinals worked on the abuse issue in TX and the pope totally ignored it and refused to sign the papers I left the church.

There was nothing mentioned about all the survivors that have suffered over the years due to this abuse and cover up. All because the pope felt some prists would be wrongly accused.

I have no respect for the catholic church it is just how I feel.
The people in the church are not the problem it is the one running it.

_________________________
Standing together is so much better than hiding in the dark.
***I am a three time WoR Retreat Alumni***
The Round Table, Men's CSA Group, Monday 7:30pm CST, MaleSurvivor Chat

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#141245 - 02/12/07 09:06 AM Re: Catholic perspectives on CSA [Re: michael Joseph]
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Michael,

I respect your opinion, but we have already asked people to please keep the Church abuse issues out of this thread. We are trying to discuss issues of faith, not abuse by priests.

If you want to discuss abuse by priests, please start another thread and don't hijack this one.

Thanks,

Nobby

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#141562 - 02/14/07 01:06 PM Re: Catholic perspectives on CSA [Re: Nobbynobs]
Brian Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 1563
Loc: Upstate NY
This thread was created to discuss a specific topic. Please review the first post in this thread and offer your opinion on this topic.

Quote:
Hi,

I am going to be writing a theological paper (in preparation for my Confession) on Catholic perspectives on CSA. My main theme is going to focussing on Catholic victims and the role that sinfulness and forgiveness have on their recovery. I will be using the case of St. Maria Goretti as my basis for my theme.

I am interested in hearing the perspectives of other Catholics on this. If any Catholics (or anyone from a Trinitarian "Catholic" Church such as Lutherans or Anglicans) would like to enter into an email discussion with me on the subject, please drop me a PM.

Thanks,

Nobby


I understand the anger, but lets please try to be respectful of other members here. If you wish to discuss the child sexual abuse scandal in the Catholic Church, please feel free to do so in this newly created thread:

http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=141347&page=1#Post141347

Thank you,

Brian

_________________________
Recovery is Possible!

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#141596 - 02/14/07 03:15 PM Re: Catholic perspectives on CSA [Re: Mark Antony]
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Why? Should I confess! But I did, and got nowhere with the priest who knew me by my voice.
When he couldnt give me any guidance, who else could I ever turn to?

It was like being abused all over again, and like he knows now, and gave me no guidance.
I decided never to go to any service where he was the priest.
He complained on not seeing me, but I did not want to see his face ever again.

He must have thought he had me primed for his own abuse, and he would always be around my home asking to talk with me.
No way, I said to my father, and I even had radar to know he was
around the neighborhood.

I fought with my father over him being so 'keen' on his visits, luckily he agreed,

ste


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#141928 - 02/16/07 09:26 PM Re: Catholic perspectives on CSA [Re: reality2k4]
AshSurvived Offline
Member

Registered: 01/07/07
Posts: 167
Loc: Australia
Nobbs: I don't know if I can send PM's, so her's what I tried to send you:

Nobby, I had a quick look at your Catholic persepctives thread and I just wanted to tell you something.

Last night my wife and I were discussing sex and marriage and the church and we both agreed the Catholics do a much better job of that sort of thing than our religion ever did. You guys actually talk about it for a start.

And you run Catholic family planning centres, and produce books on your advice. And while I don't agree with the perspectives, I really admire that type of attitude - taking a stand and actually helping people, rather than pushing it all under the rug.

And I also respect the Catholic approach to welfare and foreign aid. You Catholics have a lot to be proud of Nobby, don't let the others bait you and get you down. You know I disagree with the actual beliefs, but I have a lot of respect for your faith and for the way it is administrated. Not every atheist walks around with their head up their arse, some of us can see the good, and the all too human failings as distinct animals.

* please let me know if you got the PM.

_________________________
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- Harvey Pekar to David Letterman
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#141929 - 02/16/07 09:36 PM Re: Catholic perspectives on CSA [Re: Nobbynobs]
dillon Offline
Guest

Registered: 02/02/07
Posts: 55
Loc: california,san deigo
i was sexually abused for 11 years by 1 person and another for 2 years, im 14 years old now the abuse stiop about 3 months ago and im catholic i go to saint peter.(im chaldean)

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watch this video

[url=link] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSWUYeNDwX0

New video!!

[url=link]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kroz7SmSLTw&mode=related&search=

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#141945 - 02/16/07 11:11 PM Re: Catholic perspectives on CSA [Re: AshSurvived]
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: AshSurvived
Nobbs: I don't know if I can send PM's, so her's what I tried to send you:

Nobby, I had a quick look at your Catholic persepctives thread and I just wanted to tell you something.

Last night my wife and I were discussing sex and marriage and the church and we both agreed the Catholics do a much better job of that sort of thing than our religion ever did. You guys actually talk about it for a start.

And you run Catholic family planning centres, and produce books on your advice. And while I don't agree with the perspectives, I really admire that type of attitude - taking a stand and actually helping people, rather than pushing it all under the rug.

And I also respect the Catholic approach to welfare and foreign aid. You Catholics have a lot to be proud of Nobby, don't let the others bait you and get you down. You know I disagree with the actual beliefs, but I have a lot of respect for your faith and for the way it is administrated. Not every atheist walks around with their head up their arse, some of us can see the good, and the all too human failings as distinct animals.

* please let me know if you got the PM.


Ash,

Back when he was Joe Ratzinger, Pope Benedict wrote very eloquently on atheism. I'll try to find you a couple of the articles he wrote, but I think you will be quite surprised by his stance.

Found one: http://www.tcrnews2.com/genratzinger.html

Scroll down to: "CARDINAL RATZINGER AND ATHEIST PHILOSOPHER DEBATE"



Edited by Nobbynobs (02/16/07 11:15 PM)
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#141949 - 02/16/07 11:27 PM Re: Catholic perspectives on CSA [Re: Nobbynobs]
dillon Offline
Guest

Registered: 02/02/07
Posts: 55
Loc: california,san deigo
that was really cool of u to say.... thanx \:\)



Edited by dillon (02/16/07 11:27 PM)
_________________________
watch this video

[url=link] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSWUYeNDwX0

New video!!

[url=link]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kroz7SmSLTw&mode=related&search=

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#141960 - 02/17/07 02:09 AM Re: Catholic perspectives on CSA [Re: dillon]
michael Joseph Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/11/01
Posts: 2719
Loc: Virginia
It is ok for me to be mad, but what I am really mad at is the fact that sexual abuse happens at all. It is not the churches fault.

I am Polish and Irish, and Catholic.


Michael Joseph
God Bless You

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#141981 - 02/17/07 08:33 AM Re: Catholic perspectives on CSA [Re: michael Joseph]
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
MJ,

I think that the "Church," I.E., the organisation that administers the Holy Roman Catholic Church, is guilty of countless sins, and has been the cause of great evil in the world.

At the same time, I think the "church," I.E., Corpus Christi, the body of Christ, (or the "Catholics") have been responsible for some of the greatest acts of grace that this planet has seen.

The problem is differentiating between the people who use the "organisation" of the Church to do wrong, and the people who "are" the Church, I.E., Catholics.

We must never forget that the Church organisation is not God. The Church organisation is the administrative system that has evolved in order to provide the organisational structure to the works of the Catholic Church, such as theology, building Churches, running charities, etc.

The "body of Christ" Church is the Church in communion with God, and while it exists within the "organisation" of the Roman Catholic Church, it is not responsible for the sins committed by the members of the Church.

I find that when people say they "hate the Church," what they really mean is that they are very angry over the evil that some of the people within the Church have done. And because of the immense betrayal that this evil represents (they are hurting people and telling them that it is God's will that they are being hurt) the anger that results is also immense.

The thing to remember is that their are very good people within the Church, and that the Church's powers to heal have not been diminished one iota by the abuses. Like Ash mentioned, the Catholic charities are very good organisations, and they are a great force for healing in the world. So when you think of the Church, and the evil that has been done in its name, always try to remember the good side too.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#142398 - 02/19/07 09:11 PM Re: Catholic perspectives on CSA [Re: Mark Antony]
froggy12 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/06
Posts: 527
Loc: Marlboro, MA 01752
One can forgive but not forget.
But if I don't forgive I have a resentment and I ride it like a tsunami, and die. So I have to try, slowly and then again tomorrow, until....
Hate kills, eats me up alive and I can not let that happen to me. Wastes a lot of energy too. So all I can say is "God, show me the way."

a very cold froggy -25 wind chill.

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