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#141055 - 02/10/07 08:49 PM Re: Catholic perspectives on CSA [Re: Nobbynobs]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16265
It really makes me wonder why the mere reference to the above mentioned denomination here in the spirituality forum, in a thread that has nothing whatever to do with the abuse issues surrounding that denomination, has made some here feel so threatened to the point where the need is felt to express hostility and anger.

It has me baffled.

I'd like to suggest some things.

First, If a thread such as this triggers the anger response in you, stop and ask yourself honestly what it is that is making you angry. Psychologists tell us that in instances like this it is quite often the case that something said hits a lot closer to home than a person cares to admit, and hits issues we don't want to face. I have found that to be true in my own life. Something the other guy said hits me in a place I'd rather not be hit so instead of examining that, I react, and there has been a time or two (perhaps more) when I've made and ass of myself over it instead of facing my own demons.

Second, this thread had nothing whatever to do with the abuse issues of the Roman Catholic church, as bad as those abuse issues are (no one here will dispute that). Is it too much to ask that when a person posts that he keeps his post to the subject matter or the originating post of the thread? It's only common courtesy that anyone would like to receive in response to their own posts.

Third, if anyone wants to have a uninhibited discussion of these issues, take it to the unmoderated forum where there is more latitude allowed in the discussion and responses.

So come on guys, can we do the right thing here and be a little more congenial?




Edited by walkingsouth (02/16/07 03:52 AM)
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#141065 - 02/10/07 10:11 PM Re: Catholic perspectives on CSA [Re: Nobbynobs]
outis Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/27/03
Posts: 2260
Loc: Maryland USA
Nobby,

I'm Roman Catholic. I've struggled with forgiveness quite a bit. My worst struggle at the moment is the attempt to separate forgiveness from restoration of a relationship. And the best thought on that which helps me right now is that Jesus prayed for forgiveness for those who crucified Him, yet didn't wear a crown of thorns before Pilate ever again after Easter. He forgave, and that did not require a return to the relationship in its abusive form.

Sinfulness? I know I acted sinfully at times, whether "prompted" by my reactions to CSA or not. The fact that I chose rightly at times, even before starting to recover, proves that I was capable. I do not accept responsibility for the actions of others, particularly the actions of perps, nor do I believe that God would hold me responsible for them. Still it is I, and I alone, who is responsible for the things I have done through my life.

Thanks,

Joe


_________________________
"Telemachos, your guest is no discredit to you. I wasted no time in stringing the bow, and I did not miss the mark. My strength is yet unbroken…"—The Odyssey, translated by W.H.D. Rouse

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#141076 - 02/10/07 11:17 PM Re: Catholic perspectives on CSA [Re: outis]
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Joe,

Thanks for writing.

On forgiveness, I think the Church recognises a difference between forgiving your perp, I.E., recognising that he has fallen into sin, and reconciling with your perp, I.E., actively entering into a positive relationship with him.

I think forgiveness is our responsibility as Christians, and it should be something that we should all work towards. This does not mean that we should rush to forgive, but forgiveness should be a goal in our recovery. I won't go into a definition of forgiveness because that has been beaten to death in other threads.

Reconciliation, on the other hand, is trickier. Personally, I am willing to help my perp with his healing and rehabilitation, but I am not about to approach him and offer my help. I fear that he would only lash out at me and I would end up getting hurt. Pearls before swine. However, if my perp showed remorse and approached me, either directly or through a 3rd party, to ask my forgiveness, I don't think I would be able to deny him that. We never know what form Jesus will take when he comes to us as a thief in the night.

I agree with your interpretation of sinfulness, and someone has actually sent me the relevant sections of the CCC where the Vatican has clearly stated that the sin in rape lies with the rapist. My dilemma is in understanding my role in what followed. I kept quiet about my abuser, and he went on to abuse other children. I know that I kept silent out of fear, and due to the PTSD, but I still felt guilt over it. Personally, I have resolved this guilt through confessing it to a friend, but I think that it would be a great help to Catholic survivors if the Church provided a means by which they could identify and address their sins as part of their recovery.

Too often I think these survivors flee the Church for fear of being judged. I think that this is due to two things: 1) a lack of clergy/laity who have experience in dealing with CSA, and 2) the poor job that the Catholic community has done of communicating the Vatican's position on rape and its aftermath. The second one is particularly distressing, because the new Catechism is very supportive of rape survivors. I think that it could be a very useful healing tool for Catholic survivors.

Ideally, if I do finish this article, I hope that it will serve as a guide to Catholic survivors so that they can differentiate between their sins and their perp's, and, through doing so, regain a portion of their faith and begin their recovery. I am going to be meeting with a priest this week to see if he will agree to co-author it with me.

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- Mel Brooks

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#141094 - 02/11/07 10:17 AM Re: Catholic perspectives on CSA [Re: Nobbynobs]
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
This is the section of the CCC that deals with rape:

"2356 Rape is the forcible violation of the sexual intimacy of another person. It does injury to justice and charity. Rape deeply wounds the respect, freedom, and physical and moral integrity to which every person has a right. It causes grave damage that can mark the victim for life. It is always an intrinsically evil act. Graver still is the rape of children committed by parents (incest) or those responsible for the education of the children entrusted to them."

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When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#141175 - 02/11/07 07:18 PM Re: Catholic perspectives on CSA [Re: Mark Antony]
michael Joseph Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/11/01
Posts: 2719
Loc: Virginia
I have problems with a church that keeps perps alive, when the cardinals worked on the abuse issue in TX and the pope totally ignored it and refused to sign the papers I left the church.

There was nothing mentioned about all the survivors that have suffered over the years due to this abuse and cover up. All because the pope felt some prists would be wrongly accused.

I have no respect for the catholic church it is just how I feel.
The people in the church are not the problem it is the one running it.

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#141245 - 02/12/07 09:06 AM Re: Catholic perspectives on CSA [Re: michael Joseph]
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Michael,

I respect your opinion, but we have already asked people to please keep the Church abuse issues out of this thread. We are trying to discuss issues of faith, not abuse by priests.

If you want to discuss abuse by priests, please start another thread and don't hijack this one.

Thanks,

Nobby

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#141562 - 02/14/07 01:06 PM Re: Catholic perspectives on CSA [Re: Nobbynobs]
Brian Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 1563
Loc: Upstate NY
This thread was created to discuss a specific topic. Please review the first post in this thread and offer your opinion on this topic.

Quote:
Hi,

I am going to be writing a theological paper (in preparation for my Confession) on Catholic perspectives on CSA. My main theme is going to focussing on Catholic victims and the role that sinfulness and forgiveness have on their recovery. I will be using the case of St. Maria Goretti as my basis for my theme.

I am interested in hearing the perspectives of other Catholics on this. If any Catholics (or anyone from a Trinitarian "Catholic" Church such as Lutherans or Anglicans) would like to enter into an email discussion with me on the subject, please drop me a PM.

Thanks,

Nobby


I understand the anger, but lets please try to be respectful of other members here. If you wish to discuss the child sexual abuse scandal in the Catholic Church, please feel free to do so in this newly created thread:

http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=141347&page=1#Post141347

Thank you,

Brian

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Recovery is Possible!

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#141596 - 02/14/07 03:15 PM Re: Catholic perspectives on CSA [Re: Mark Antony]
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Why? Should I confess! But I did, and got nowhere with the priest who knew me by my voice.
When he couldnt give me any guidance, who else could I ever turn to?

It was like being abused all over again, and like he knows now, and gave me no guidance.
I decided never to go to any service where he was the priest.
He complained on not seeing me, but I did not want to see his face ever again.

He must have thought he had me primed for his own abuse, and he would always be around my home asking to talk with me.
No way, I said to my father, and I even had radar to know he was
around the neighborhood.

I fought with my father over him being so 'keen' on his visits, luckily he agreed,

ste


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#141928 - 02/16/07 09:26 PM Re: Catholic perspectives on CSA [Re: reality2k4]
AshSurvived Offline
Member

Registered: 01/07/07
Posts: 167
Loc: Australia
Nobbs: I don't know if I can send PM's, so her's what I tried to send you:

Nobby, I had a quick look at your Catholic persepctives thread and I just wanted to tell you something.

Last night my wife and I were discussing sex and marriage and the church and we both agreed the Catholics do a much better job of that sort of thing than our religion ever did. You guys actually talk about it for a start.

And you run Catholic family planning centres, and produce books on your advice. And while I don't agree with the perspectives, I really admire that type of attitude - taking a stand and actually helping people, rather than pushing it all under the rug.

And I also respect the Catholic approach to welfare and foreign aid. You Catholics have a lot to be proud of Nobby, don't let the others bait you and get you down. You know I disagree with the actual beliefs, but I have a lot of respect for your faith and for the way it is administrated. Not every atheist walks around with their head up their arse, some of us can see the good, and the all too human failings as distinct animals.

* please let me know if you got the PM.

_________________________
"It's your world Dave, I'm just livin' in it"

- Harvey Pekar to David Letterman
(American Splendour)

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#141929 - 02/16/07 09:36 PM Re: Catholic perspectives on CSA [Re: Nobbynobs]
dillon Offline
Guest

Registered: 02/02/07
Posts: 55
Loc: california,san deigo
i was sexually abused for 11 years by 1 person and another for 2 years, im 14 years old now the abuse stiop about 3 months ago and im catholic i go to saint peter.(im chaldean)

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