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#13438 - 10/18/02 02:55 PM Focusing Anger
RJD Offline
Member

Registered: 02/18/01
Posts: 326
Loc: jefferson City, Mo,usa
I started this under the mother-abuse topic but when I looked at the original topic it didn't seem to fit anymore, though it is still related.


Somewhere in my belongings I have a button that says "Men are not the enemy,
they are our fellow victims -- Betty Freidan." She is a writer I believe the
springboard for the contemporary feminist movement (?late 60's-?early 70's.)
I think the gender converse of this statement fits here too that women are
not our enemy, they are our fellow victims. Feminism is about gender equality as
I understand it. If it weren't for feminism we wouldn't have this forum today.
Feminism isn't the cause of sexism, it just put it on the table so we could
discuss it. Lets not shoot the messenger. Women were the ones who
mustered incredable volumes of courage and put sexual abuse on the table.

Over the years I have experienced the generalized devastating rage of many
women towards men. This included my own mother's rage, and that rage was
fodder when she perped a vulnerable me and my two brothers.
I have also seen the devastating damage done by men by expressing generalized
rage towards women, children and men.

The culture that denies our vulnerability and women's violence is one that is
participated in by both genders. Women as well as men struggle with artificially
>

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#13439 - 10/20/02 09:39 PM Re: Focusing Anger
Broken Offline
Member

Registered: 03/25/01
Posts: 273
Loc: Huntingtun Beach, CA, US
i dont think you can hate both men and women and be considered a misogynist. Either you just hate everybody, or you resent gender roles alltogether. There is nothing wrong with hating stereotypes.


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#13440 - 10/21/02 04:51 PM Re: Focusing Anger
jaketk Offline
Member

Registered: 09/26/02
Posts: 49
Loc: illinois
it' interesting that a feminist would make such an inclusive statement. i wonder what current feminists would think of it.

i've been verbally trashed under the guise of feminism. whatever it's intentions were to begin with, feminism has turned into a bastion for females only. if you don't support the ideology, you're a misogynist. true, feminism doesn't cause sexism, but it does promote bias against men, most of the time covertly, by focusing solely on women, never on males. it's been said that forums like these are because of feminism. i agree. it's because of feminism that we must heal separately from women. if we were to "speak' as openly as we do here where women are present, we'd be shunned and labeled.

my father hates women. i don't doubt some of that rubbed off on me. i don't necessarily hate women as much as i don't trust them. i grew up being with so many different people, average folks who you'd never think would desire sex with a child, and yet they did. the women i've encountered outside of my abuse have thrown it in my face. i've never met people so openly cruel and uncaring as i have when speaking with women who claim to want to protect children.

with men i've faired better because of the way i grew up. with my uncle showing me all men aren't the same, with my father and other uncles showing me that they hurt us because they themselves were hurt as kids, with men like my former foster father who took me in even though i would barely talk, men like my neighbor who helped keep me and my cousins and brothers together.

i have met kind women. women who didn't insult me, or think less of me for being male. however, how can i trust them when they did and said the same things as the women who hurt me?

i don't allow myself to get angry beyond control. i keep the rage bottled up, i focus it on my work, on writing, schoolwork, drawing, anywhere but at another person.

i can't say that i hate anyone because i really don't. i distrust them. knowing that, i have to learn to associate with people.

with me, women did hurt me, not just my aunts. men hurt me, not just my father and uncles. i won't label myself. i won't say that i behave and think in ways that i don't. i may dislike women, but i don't hate them. i may dislike men, but i don't hate them.

in an all-inclusive world, we wouldn't have a need for forums like this. it'd be possible for the abuse of males to have been acknowledged by women, by feminists. there would be no need to apply gender roles. there would be no sexism, racism, or prejudice. however, the world we live in is so biased that in order to rid ourselves of one, we must take on another. as humans, we need to generalize. we can't function if we see the world as more variables than constants, despite it actually being that.

i generalize women in a horrible light. i think every woman has the potential to, and will eventually, be abusive in some way, shape or form. it's just what i think. my actions are contrary to that. i'm around women all the time. i've had to learn how to associate with people without freaking out. and i have. despite having made a generalization, don't believe it always holds true.

jake


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#13441 - 10/22/02 03:56 AM Re: Focusing Anger
RJD Offline
Member

Registered: 02/18/01
Posts: 326
Loc: jefferson City, Mo,usa
I too have been trashed by feminists who were misandrists, on
more than several occasions. I once attended a forum where
womenís issues were being discussed. It was at the time that
only women experience sexual victimization and I was a freak.
When the subject of victimization came up I spoke up and said
male children are victimized too. A man on the panel (he was
in the womenís studies program ) said to me in a sneering
sarcastic tone, ďYou donít hear of boys being told they were
being molested because they were too pretty do you?Ē
I almost said ... me, but I was afraid he would answer back how
often does that happen, implying my experience might be
insignificant compared to womenís experience. I had already
heard in my childhood ď Donít ever tell anyone they wonít
understand,Ē and here it was true again. I suddenly felt like I
was suffocating and silently slipped out. I was so full of rage I
ran about 2 miles to my home to burn the energy off. I know
now that he had to hang his gonads elswhere than where he
wasat that time in his life. What he told me was pure
ignorance and it was backed in an academic setting. I also
spent most of my life without my gonads in order to protect my
mother, so I think I know what it cost him..This is only one of
many experiences like this. Years back when I said I work with
batterers, the look I would sometimes get was like I was scum
to work with scum. When we began to network with other
groups working with batterers, there were individuals
who took it upon themselves to police our gathering to see if we
had the correct mindset. When I and others tried to get the
subject of male victimization on the table, we became suspect.
When I spoke of my experience, I became the identified enemy
to certain individuals. The place became so toxic the gathering
never happened again.

iíve never met people so openly cruel and uncaring as i have when
speaking with women who claim to want to protect children.
------- jaketk
I know the feeling jaketk



I think feminism in theory speaks truth, but as a movement it has its shadow side. This shadow side is not visible to many of them in the movement. I donít think it is true for all feminists, but I as a male, and many other men and women experience the misandric underbelly of some forms of feminism. I think balance is the key. I think the pendulum has swung the other way from mysoginy. Let me take that back. I think Mysoginy and and misandry are very strong in our culture today. There is gender bigotry on both sides.

I think it is good and bad that we must heal separately from
women. Men donít listen to other menís hearts either. Iím no
more safe talking to men about my experience than I am with
women. Men have to learn to help other men in the healing
process. Women donít know what to do wih us any more than
men do. This forum is still an anomily (did I spell that right?).
However there are many many individuals who see people as
people, all capable of bleeding when wounded.

I think hatred feeds off of fear. Thatís why I need to be aware of
what my fears are so I donít act out of my fear.


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#13442 - 10/22/02 01:31 PM Re: Focusing Anger
jaketk Offline
Member

Registered: 09/26/02
Posts: 49
Loc: illinois
“fear leads to anger. anger leads hate. hate leads to suffering.” sorry to get all yoda here, but that's what that last line reminded me of.

i think back to the way my uncles behaved around each other. here they were, these men who grew up abused together, living together, being intimate, violent, and cruel together, and man were they vicious with each other. i don't get the rivalry. so much anger, so quickly placed on their brothers and sisters and children. growing up, i had only one fight with any of my siblings. it was with my older cousin, over when i raped my younger cousin with my uncles. he beat the hell out of me, but we actually did fight. the men i knew as my family fought amongst themselves in such immature manners. i don't know if trying to relate to one another ever crossed their minds. and a lot of men behave in kind of the same way, never trying to feel what another person feels.

both biases are prevalent in our culture. we generalize to prove our points. we generalize to make sense of what we don't understand. we generalize because it's easier. it's tough for us to admit we don't know what to do. as men, we're expected to know all the answers, to be able to figure things out. and we're supposed to be able to do this alone. to ask for help is a sign of weakness. to help a man showing weakness implies that one also is weak. and yes, women are just as clueless as men about men.

this forum is definitely anomaly, more than just because it's for male survivors, more than just because men here talk about their problems and help each other. it's anomaly because even in liberal settings (you're from chicago, so you might be familiar with columbia college, where i go to school) to talk about abuse as something that affects everyone, not just certain genders, is indeed odd.

i too am aware of my fear. and i make damn sure i never do anything to act upon short of keeping my mouth shut.

jake


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#13443 - 10/22/02 04:50 PM Re: Focusing Anger
RJD Offline
Member

Registered: 02/18/01
Posts: 326
Loc: jefferson City, Mo,usa
Actually I have a lot of respect for for the research on spirituality and archetypes that went into the background of Star Wars. What is presented is the choice I as a survivor have to make. Take the energy (the Force)and pain given to me and use it for positive or negative. This especially true since I have become aware of things beyond my own pain.
I think the generation before us had even fewer avenues to heal their festering wounds. All they would do is spread their pus because thet were unaware of the scope of the infection and they were told it didn't hurt, and if it did, they were told "get over it." They weren't born that way but they knew no other way.
My younger brother lived with my older brother( his rapist) for several years as adults. I start to suffocate just thinking about it. He was living with him about the time my older brother was also incesting his own daughter, though he says he was unaware of it happening. They would fight often.
My older brother called me about 20 yrs. ago. When he announced who he was I thought to myself, I don't know anyone by that name, and then it hit me..duh. He was an in-patient on a psych unit and they had given him some homework. He was supposed to ask me questions about our family. He had remembered nothing about what had happened to him or what he had done. The things he did remember shed some light and shook my own memory. He remembered me as a about a three year old walking into the living room where he and our dad were sitting. According to him I just dropped to the floor sobbing, and he thought that was just another weird thing I would often do. As soon as he said it I remembered the event vividly and the pain I had felt. The word he didn't put in there was an other weird "sissy" thing I would do. I felt he was my father's favorite and I couldn't ever measure up to my big brother. That attitude of his was his excuse for what he did to me. I was just another peice of shit. He was mean and sadistic and with impunity. He passed on the dark force rather than bring it to the light and face it.


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#13444 - 10/27/02 02:52 AM Re: Focusing Anger
RJD Offline
Member

Registered: 02/18/01
Posts: 326
Loc: jefferson City, Mo,usa
Itís not often I hear of any helpful things about the foster care system. What a
pleasant switch..

Sorry to hear of the loss of your brother and in such a tragic way. Iím so glad to
hear, for your own sake, that you are not drinking and driving anymore mattandrew.

I used to scream into a pillow to vent my rage when no one was around. I would do
this so no neighbors would hear my screams and think someone was being
attacked. There was also the fear that no one cared about the pain I was in if they
did hear me.

There was a time I was afraid to express any anger whatsoever. It didnít fit with
how I saw myself, or how other people saw me. I was seen as a quiet gentle
steady rock and a ready shoulder for everyone. Sometimes when I thought I
had myself and everyone else fooled, someone would say some cliche like
ďStill waters run deep,Ē when referring to me and I would feel so exposed.
The shame would be overwhelming and I would want to run away. I had so many secrets to keep. I was hiding so much rage that when a sniper in Texas opened
fire from a clock tower ( ?1960ís ) I felt I knew what kind of rage it took to do
something horrible like that. That rage fit into the lie that I believed that if anyone
ever really knew me way down deep inside they couldnít help but find me contemptable and discusting. I collected guilt that way. I would hear something horrible that someone had done then I would feel guilty as another way to shame
and hate myself. I now think I did that because I didnít think my own pain was
important enough for anyone to care, so I borrowed. I was afraid to express any
anger for fear that if I did let any out the dam would burst and when it would be
over, someone would be physically hurt. I canít think of any time that ever
happened, but that was my intense fear. I no longer have that intense fear, but
sometimes my fuse does get short. At least I can acknowledge it now (sometimes.)
......If I canít have my anger, then I canít let go of it.


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#13445 - 10/30/02 03:50 AM Re: Focusing Anger
RJD Offline
Member

Registered: 02/18/01
Posts: 326
Loc: jefferson City, Mo,usa
I just read what factsperson wrote and my experience here with that individual reminded me of the experience I described above:
"Years back when I said I work with
batterers, the look I would sometimes get was like I was scum
to work with scum. When we began to network with other
groups working with batterers, there were individuals
who took it upon themselves to police our gathering to see if we
had the correct mindset. When I and others tried to get the
subject of male victimization on the table, we became suspect.
When I spoke of my experience, I became the identified enemy
to certain individuals. The place became so toxic the gathering
never happened again."

I'm very glad to see limits set here on what is acceptable. I still feel the loss of the forum for the healing explorations for discussions from way back then. Again I'm glad to see limits set here.


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