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#131723 - 01/10/05 02:42 PM On 'being gay'
PhillyPa Offline
Member

Registered: 12/20/04
Posts: 64
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
The juries still out on wether sa can cause someone to be homosexual. However, it seems accepted that sa could cause homosexual feelings.

That being the case, why are there militants from both sides of the fence?
If you've experienced homosexual feelings, there's those that say, "your normal. come out of the closet and take pride in what you are."
Then, there's the hatred: "homosexuality is a sin, an abomination. god hates fags."

Each side is equally as frustrating to deal with. You don't really know what you are, but each side wants to persuade you to their side.

I think there are self-labeled gay men who are not really gay, but confused. But, The other side acts more like a rebound in that it causes people with gay feelings to find acceptance from the 'gay pride' types. In other words, they do nothing for their 'cause'.

I guess what i'm trying to say, is that it's next to impossible to think your way through your feelings when youve got to deal with others who either tell you your feelings are normal or otherwise.

I cant say wether i'm gay or not. I dont want to be. My feelings for the same sex are unhealthy. Then again, I think I hate women because my mother beat the shit out of me but also molested me. In hind sight, the only positive attention I got from a male was when I was molested by one. I didnt have a father growing up, so I think I fit the mold of someone confused sexually.

All I can do is remain abstinent and single until I can figure out the issues. Thats a tough road, but really cant burden anyone with the issue.

Unfortunately, there are these vultures. Mostly from the homosexual side, who seem to 'want me to come out' - they see my single status as proof of homosexuality. This could be just my paranoia, but it feels like I am being hit on alot (not just by men, but women).

Geeze, what a long post. Sorry.

_________________________
Who is this doing the synthetic type of alpha beta psychedelic funkin?

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#131724 - 01/10/05 03:31 PM Re: On 'being gay'
Raphael Offline
Member

Registered: 10/10/04
Posts: 67
I can relate a lot to what you wrote. As you said it is accepted that SA can cause homosexual feelings. I know that from personal experience. And I believe that many survivors of SA, both male and female, may end up thinking that they are gay, only based on the confusion caused by the abuse. It is tough.

I grew up remembering and trying to hide the terrible sexual “initiation” I had, feeling guilty and ashamed. I would act out the effects of that traumatic experience since the age of 3-5 but instead of the adults around me read the signs that said “something's wrong here. He needs help. There is something going on”, they would cruelly reinforce the abuse and would start saying that I was gay. So I grew up with everyone doubting my sexual orientation and most people actually betting that I was gay, and eager to see me come out of the closet, accept what they thought I was. They had it all figured it out for me!

Of course I asked that question to myself many, many times: “Am I gay?” But when I would think it through I would always agree that:

yes, I had attraction to males,
yes, I had gay sexual fantasies,
but no, I would never see myself in a romantic relationship with a guy,
no, I would never see myself living with another man for the rest of my life and getting old by his side.
yes, I was also attracted to girls (so you are bi – some would quickly say, trying to label me)
yes, I would like to have children, have a family, grow old with them
yes, I was able to love a man. I have many friends whom I love very much and would feel good to get close to them, and hug them.
But no! I would never want to have sex with them…

so what would all that make me? Confused!

Another thing that was always clear to me was that all my homosexual fantasies were/are a repetition of what went on during the abuse: oral sex. Even today, when I suffer from addiction to gay porn sites (and am desperately trying to heal from this before it ruins my life!) the only things I want to see in those sites is oral sex. If I see any scene of penetration or kissing or whatever it really turns me off and disgusts me. (sorry if I am being too blunt… I don't want to offend anyone)

I am still paranoid of people labeling me “gay”, I am still uncomfortable with my own body and with being a man. I am tall and people see me as a handsome man – but my self image is still very poor. One day I decided to join a martial arts class and on my second week of class the instructor paired me with a veteran student for one of the exercises. Inside my head I was so afraid of “fighting” with that other man (I am not violent at all) and was afraid that I would chicken out, that I would be hurt, that he would think I was gay. Well, to my surprise, his comments to the instructor was “What! Don't put me with that big guy!” Big guy?, I thought to myself, where? It was the first time that I started to realize that my self image has been really distorted.

Anyway, sorry for this long post but as you can see I am still very confused and suffer a lot from this.


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#131725 - 01/10/05 04:14 PM Re: On 'being gay'
MollyHatchetrules Offline
Member

Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 31
Loc: Hoover, AL USA
It's my opinion that even if a person is sexually active with someone of the same sex, they are not gay unless they want a long-term emotional relationship with someone of the same sex. I have never done anything with a man, but I still label myself gay because I have wanted a relationship with a man for as long as I can remember. Abuse can definitely confuse someone about their orientation. It can easily make someone who is not gay think they are. And I don't think that we will ever completely understand what rape/abuse does to the mind, so I do think it's possible that if it happens to someone before their orientation has developed (before puberty) it does have the potential to lead to homosexuality, assuming that the person is genetically predispositioned for it. I first started noticing men when I was ten, and I was abused for the first time when I was eleven. So that gave me the idea that there was something wrong with the feelings I had towards men. It had me wondering if that was always going to happen when I was with a man. I am twentyone now and I am still not ready to trust a man enough to have a relationship. I would like to think that I'll be able to truse a man someday, but right now I don't know. I'm what the gay community would refer to as a "stag-fag". That's a gay man who prefers the company of heterosexual men over homosexual men. I prefer it because that way I don't feel pressured to try anything (you know what I'm talking about) that I am not ready for. I've got off topic so I'll stop now.

_________________________
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you will join us
And the world will live as one
-John Lennon

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#131726 - 01/10/05 05:13 PM Re: On 'being gay'
Aden Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/04
Posts: 499
One reason for sexual confusion is that no one is sexually certain. None of us are 100% one way or the other. Society itself is confused as to the very nature of sexual orientation. We try to fight our way thru to a self definition while swimming in muddy water. Everybody wants to believe that they are playing on the right team, but nobody even knows the rules of the game.

Somewhere between Biblical Assertions and Gay Pride, the rest of us just get horny at odd moments for no clear reasons. Being sexually confused is normal. It is the expectation of sexual certainty that is perverse.

Aden


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#131727 - 01/11/05 12:12 AM Re: On 'being gay'
Ivanhoe Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/19/03
Posts: 1907
Well, a spirited thread, I must say. And, one we must get Ken Singer to respond to. I will PM him to see if I can get him to break away from clients, book writing, gardening, and wife's "honey do" lists, long enough to comment here.

In the mean time, allow me to add a cent or two.
I understand that sexual orientations are established by the time someone is five years old. Since some of us were exposed to early sexual activity, maybe more than playing doctor, I would assume that abuse from older children or adults would be highly confusing to our later sexual preference for girls or boys, men or women.
What some of us may not realize is that we could even be somewhat fixated or stuck in some period of developmental stage of our lives. That is to say, some of us could have a little of the Peter Pan syndrome, in that we are stuck and have yet to grow up into the men we were meant to be.
I think that is a particular problem of mine. I was so frightened by what I saw the adults doing around me that I refused to have anything to do with them...they will only hurt, confuse or abuse you.
With that, you'd think that one would want to grow up as fast as they could and be an adult as fast as they could so that THEY could be in charge. I think that I did that. As a matter of fact, I think that I became an adult-child. I was/am an adult, but have childlike wants and desires, not ever being able to be the man I always wanted to be.
So my sexual acting out was only wanting to remain the boy, and the fear of actually being with a woman was something that a boy simply couldn't do.
I finally fell in love with a beautiful woman, as beautiful inside as she is on the surface.
But the Peter Pan in me, continued to fight for supremacy. I was never "anywhere" but with her during our love making, but I continued to have my fixated fantasies of someone of 13 years of age, during the rest of the day or evening. Make sense to anyone else? Has anyone discovered this or similar from therapy.
So, what I'm suggesting, is that some of us may also have another factor involved, arrested development.
Oh shit, not something else to think about...will this abuse stuff never end.

David

PS...I'm gunna get Ken, now.

_________________________
"No soul is desolate as long as there is a human being for whom it can feel trust and reverence."
George Eliot

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#131728 - 01/11/05 02:21 AM Re: On 'being gay'
Rustam Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 465
Loc: UK
This issue has come up quite a bit since I joined, I always find it interesting and it has given me lots to think about and insights into myself.

I am in a gay relationship have been for eight years. My abuse started very early so I cant remember a time before it happened, and I was abused by both sexes. I expect that all my brothers were abused; as I was, all five are heterosexual.

I don’t know that the jury is out about abuse causing someone to become homosexual. Abuse can cause homosexual behaviour but not homosexuals. Abuse causes people to re-enact the abuse through homosexual and heterosexual behaviour. But it seems unlikely that it can cause someone to become homosexual. The homosexual behaviour causes confusion about sexuality. The kind of behaviour described by some people here about re-enacting the abuse like being fixated on a particular act or acting out in a very fixed pattern is not about being homosexual. Naturally it is very confusing and anyone seeing a married man looking at gay porn or seeking anonymous sex with men would think they were closet cases, but understanding abuse issues shows this not to be the case.

I have acted out heterosexually and homosexually but I am increasingly aware of the difference in that behaviour and my real sexuality which is more gay than straight. I know the difference between sexual fantasies that are re-enactments of the abuse and my given sexuality. I am still pretty messed up about sex but I think that sex is an expression of love and that however I manage to love and be loved is the issue for me. If I had waited to sort out the confusion I had/have I might as well have lived in a monastery, I have managed to have honest relationships that have enriched my life with both sexes.

If gay and straight were seen as equally valid forms of love knowing what we really are and living that would be a lot less complicated and would be burdened with less shame about homosexual acting out.

Rustam.


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#131729 - 01/11/05 03:06 PM Re: On 'being gay'
PhillyPa Offline
Member

Registered: 12/20/04
Posts: 64
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Ok, this is ok. I'm not alone on this issue. I cringed to check back this thread fearing it would be over looked or ignored. Thanks for opening up like this.

I am impressed by the guys who are married who have had this issue. Also impressed by the ones who are comfortable with their identity. I like finding the common ground between we single guys, still wondering who we are.

As for the being a late bloomer, or having arrested development, so true. I am a kid trapped in a mans body. I eat like a kid (candy, cookies and milk - I just ate a fruit roll up), wear clothes like a kid, and basically always look for stimulation like a kid (drive fast, go to concerts, blast heavy metal music). I read this as an attribute to SA.

Lately, ive been doing the comparisons with my peers. They wear these clothes I cant afford (because I need to buy games for my playstation 2), and when I try to dress like them - it just doesnt look right. It looks like I try too hard, so ive resigned to being a child with limited guilt. Someday, I think, that may change but its not worth beating myself up over - especially since I work where there really is no dress code.
But, I do see recognition of my abuse as a sign of maturity.

_________________________
Who is this doing the synthetic type of alpha beta psychedelic funkin?

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#131730 - 01/11/05 04:20 PM Re: On 'being gay'
Jake_t2398 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 131



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#131731 - 01/12/05 03:45 AM Re: On 'being gay'
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5775
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
This is an excerpt from the book I am writing. Please do not copy or distribute it since it has not been edited and is still in early draft form. It may answer some of the issues here.
Ken

“If I got an erection, had an orgasm or ejaculated during the abuse with a male, does it mean I’m gay?” This is a common response to sexual abuse. Because the victim’s penis is often stimulated by the abuser through touch or body contact, the victim may believe that his erection betrayed him or is somehow an indicator that he is homosexual. While there is no research that confirms sexual abuse causes homosexuality, many victims believe that this experience, particularly if it is the first encounter of a sexual nature, results in becoming gay. Since nearly ten per cent of the population is homosexual or bisexual, there are a number of boys who, regardless of sexual abuse history, would have been “naturally” gay later on.

Sometimes the abuser will use the fear of homosexuality in a boy as a way to get him to go along with the abuse, justify the abuser’s actions, or to blackmail the youth into further sexual acts or prevent him from disclosing. Many abusers I’ve worked with have told their victims that the erection was “proof” the victim “wanted” the sexual contact, or that his erection was “proof” he was really gay. It has also been a blackmail tool to scare the boy into believing that people would know he was gay, as if that is worse than being abused or that the abuser molested the child.

Sometimes the victim becomes fixated on penises. Thoughts of performing oral sex on men or boys become the theme of sexual fantasies for some. For those who are truly homosexual, this is a natural source of arousal. For the male victim of same sex abuse, the penis may have a different meaning in the recurrent fantasies. What we find sexual can also be termed “erotic”. If you are heterosexual, the thought of a woman’s body can be quite stimulating. Because our sexual conditioning may involve a focus on body parts, some men become particularly interested or aroused by breasts, or buttocks, or legs. Others become attracted to the vulva or vagina. There is no “right” way on to be attracted.

WARNING - - MAY BE TRIGGER WITH GRAPHIC SEX

I worked with a man years ago that was obsessed by legs, feet and women’s shoes. He reported that his mother used to come home from work and ask him to massage her legs and feet. She moaned as he worked her on legs and said things like, “Oh, you’re so good. That feels great, yes, yes!” He said he remembered often being sexually aroused and during one massage session with her, when he was about 11, he experienced his first orgasm and ejaculation. He later associated sexual response with women’s legs, feet and shoes. The greatest turn on for him during sex was to kiss his partner’s feet and massage her legs. He was also a big consumer of pornographic magazines that cater to those attracted to legs, feet and shoes. He concluded that had he not been eroticized to his mother’s legs and feet as a boy, he would have had a more normal sexual attraction to a woman’s body and not fixated on her legs and feet.

“What if I think about penises a lot? Does that mean I’m gay?” Not necessarily. The man described above associated sexual pleasure with his mother’s (and later his partners’) legs, shoes and feet. If a boy experiences powerful sexual feelings while sucking his abuser’s penis, or having his own penis licked, or touching or being touched on the penis, he may make a similar association. In addition, as teenagers discovering masturbation, we reinforce the pleasurable feelings with the sight and feel of our own penises. So, with a “normal” (that is, non-abusive) sexual history, we will have a neutral to good association with penises. They make us feel good, powerful, and alleviate boredom.

But when the sexual feelings are forced, unwanted, confusing, even painful, the association with the penis can be contaminated. Some men hate their penis because it “betrayed” them by getting erect in an abusive situation. Because the male abuser, particularly when there are negative feelings towards him, has a penis, some survivors may associate the penis with the hurt, betrayal, humiliation, shame, and guilt from the abuse. Think of the confusion one might feel from having these negative emotions about the abuse or abuser, and trying to feel good about one’s sexuality and penis.


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#131732 - 01/12/05 05:46 PM Re: On 'being gay'
MollyHatchetrules Offline
Member

Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 31
Loc: Hoover, AL USA
Ken, I understand what you were saying about how a person can hate their penis, and other parts of their body because they feel like they were betrayed by their body during abuse. I went through that until I was eighteen. For me it was a bit different though. I didn't realize it at first, but it wasn't my penis that I hated. It was my circumcision. The guy who had hurt me was also cut, so for reasons that I have absolutely no understanding of I started to associate that with what he did. It got to the point that I went through a process called foreskin restoration, or uncircumcision. That means I stretched what was left of the skin until it eventually looked as if nothing had been removed. And I have absolutely no idea why, but it has made me feel better about myself and my body image. I don't have any negative feelings towards that part of my body any more. I have even regained some sense of masculinity that was lost during abuse. Does this make any sense to anyone?

_________________________
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you will join us
And the world will live as one
-John Lennon

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#131733 - 01/13/05 01:56 AM Re: On 'being gay'
Glen Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/04
Posts: 71
Loc: Wisconsin
This topic has brought up a question. I fantasize about women and there breasts but it never causes an erection. But when I think of my penis I can get hard? I have been with a man but can never have an orgasm. But I am too scared to date a woman for fear I would not get hard. Does this sound weird? I dated this girl my freshman year in college she came on to me really aggressive one night I felt like a fool cause I couldnt get it in and I couldnt maintain an erection in fact I got a panic attack. So what does this mean? I was abused by my older sister. And I maintained an erection much to my disgust. whats going on now?

_________________________
Please tell me why..

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#131734 - 01/13/05 06:16 AM Re: On 'being gay'
Morning Star Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: Home
At 33, I still look like a child. Talk of Arrested Development. Probably The reason I attracted lot of gay attention, and of course girls.

I behave like a child, with childish tantrums intact, my responses are not immature, especially when I can’t pretend grown up, especially when I am angry or upset.

I am most myself with children, because that is when I can be myself. Will I ever grow up? Can I ever take off this mask of grown up I have been wearing for so long?

I want to re-experience the childhood that was cut short. So I am still living in it, while the scenery around me has shifted.

Now I want to finally and truly grow up, while regaining my childhood innocence. May be that is what I am still looking for in my childhood facades.

And I know that tiny kernel is still intact somewhere within me, untouched by any abuse, any attack. Because it is beyond it all. For it is eternal and pure. And it is love.

Now I know that why my healing is so connected with my journey towards my Self.

If not for SA I would have never, never looked within. The pain and the chaos constantly pushed me towards my self. To finally find that the essense of all life, lies within my heart.

_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#131735 - 01/13/05 08:29 AM Re: On 'being gay'
Morning Star Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: Home
As a child the first time I felt loved and sexually potent was at the same time. SO this wrong cross connection has been guiding my journey so far. I got love as male sexual attention. And concluded that was love was all about. Easy.

As I grew up I reenacted that same technique, repeatedly. I even tried exhibitionism when everything failed to get male attention. I felt powerful when I saw myself attractive. Not impotent and unable to attract love as I felt as a child.

Sex with men, or fantasizing became the easiest way to feel loved. Because that was the first time I felt loved as child. So even now when I am feeling low, I start acting as a child, I go to gay porn sites and feel loved instantly. I like to see men who are willing to ‘open up’ themselves up to me…as I did. That is why porn is so addictive, you are addicted to love. Love at the click of a button! What power and control, make anyone love you, strip for you.

My guide asked me to explore it further. That is when I realized an interesting thing, after a while I no longer felt the need to take it further, masturbate. Unless I was highly love deficient.

Later I was in relationship with a gay man, who had gradually seduced me (just as the guy in my childhood). After a few months I realized again that after initial cuddling up I felt full, didn’t feel the need to take it the next level. And the guy, who was trying hard to making me believe that I was gay or at least sexually confused or ambiguous, ran away.

When I had sex with a woman for the first time, I discovered my instinctive way my love making. Boy was she surprised! As if a great sexual energy was being unleashed, it was my true sexuality which was denied for so long. Just because I had chosen to stick to the quickest way to get love. A way I learn as a child and never bothered to unlearn it. Obviously I was an angry man; my repressed true sexuality was very miffed. ;\)

I am human and I need love. And when I don’t feel loved I go back to the same mechanism I learnt as a child. I replay it, again and again.

I know there must be better way to get love than in childhood patterns.

May be when I learn to love myself, I will also learn to receive love. And my endless seeking would end too.

\:\)

_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#131736 - 01/15/05 02:14 AM Re: On 'being gay'
SJake Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/07/05
Posts: 6
Loc: Wisconsin
WOW I just started reading these posts recently and this particular subject is exactly what I have been trying to deal with and figure out for myself.

I thought I was alone here that no one else could understand the torement I feel trying to figure out my feelings. I have always refused to accept that I was gay because I was ashamed of those feelings that I felt during the abuse.

But yet I did respond with erection, orgasm, and kept quiet and let it continue for years. But I also never liked being intimate kissing or fondleing or touching, outside of oral sex or masturbation and never really liked anal sex, but I still allowed it to be done to me.

I like and crave the loving fatherly attention I missed out on as child (except for my uncles sex abuse) and always needed a mentor in my life to get approval from. And I think I confused the attention I needed for approval with being gay.
But I am only looking for acceptence from older men.

In the past the only way I found that love and attention was to perform a sexual act for my uncle. Now the only person I want to make love to and cuddle with, and kiss and be close to and intimate with is my girlfriend.

I still crave the acceptance of the male role model type men in my life like (bosses, teachers, mentors etc. And I often fantasize of sex with them, but I have never acted on it or persued it with any of them.

I do visit mature men porn sites but I am repulsed by the intimacy,Hugging, anal sex and kissing they do. So go figure, am I just confused or crazy or is this normal. ???

Thought of the day:
Maybe straight men that have never been abused feel the same as we do, but just don't talk about it or allow them selves the openness of discussing it. Maybe we are the normal ones and are just more in touch with our feelings and who we are then the so called normal straight men.

Can you be straight and not be gay and still just like the physical penis play, Because men know how to perform oral sex on another man better than a women does. And men are more relaxed to acting on the physical pleasure without the pressure of performance issues that we put on ourselves when with our women.

Let me know what you think please, I have struggled with these feelings for so long and thought I was so alone with them for so long.


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#131737 - 01/16/05 01:18 AM Re: On 'being gay'
PhillyPa Offline
Member

Registered: 12/20/04
Posts: 64
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Hey, Jake. Glad you are here at the forum. Welcome and good luck.
You have something i'm lacking and that is someone to share heterosexual sex with. I am isolated in fright of underperforming or being accused of being gay. Further fear of being dumped - abondened and "left to die".

I am in question, like yourself , about whats normal attraction to be considered gay.
The only comfort I have, is in the fact that I dont relate with the kissing, holding hands, and adoration of the male penis. This is MY POSITIVE step towards the reality that i'm NOT GAY.
Of the "gay male websites" ive seen - few have done anything for me. I'll spend money on these porn pass gay websites and find little offering what gets me going.

As far as the father figure, older male aspect - I relate completely.
I find authority figures, or "those in charge" as the only attraction I have towards same sex. I am especially attracted to guys with more power: bodybuilders, wrestlers, and even comic book characters. To go deeper (**may trigger**), I fantasize about being overpowered and beaten, and eventually molested. I revert to prebusence in scenes inside my mind, and have the worst guilt and shame post-orgasm.


I have found some resources on the web that deal with the issue of pseudo-homosexuality, and have read a book that details the "forensics" of same sex attraction - mostly for males. Ive found myself within the pages of these books. One, in particular called "Coming out straight: Understanding and Healing Homosexuality" by Richard Cohen - points to issues that may have caused same sex attraction such as lack of nurturing same sex parent, difficult peer relationships, and various forms of abuse (including SA).

Despite this, I have been unsuccesfull at finding my heterosexuality. I think I can learn from married, or attached heterosexual men who have been SA but find fulfillment in sex with their partners.

**Possible trigger:
I believe my mother abused the attraction I should have had towards women, out of me. To paint a grimmer picture, she is not the prettiest thing in the world, I often think of her as a Beast.
That being the case, it's difficult to find the petite, angelic, gracious, innocence, caregiving, etc. aspect of woman. Of the woman who I do see possessing all or many of these qualities, I think I must ignore my attraction because I avoid these types of woman by becoming their best friends (if that makes sense, i can explain if you need me to).

Ive got a question to heterosexual (or even bisexual) men who found woman arousing:
The woman I deal with on a daily basis are attractive, and have done things to get my attention. One is well endowed, and i'll find myself drawn to her chest. I'm sure she see's that I look at her - but, I dont know what i'm feeling. Ive blocked that aspect and want it unblocked and will read and listen to your suggestions, to know what to feel. Like, is it arousal that i'm feeling or anger? I get angry thinking about a woman who uses her sexuality to control me. But, is this aspect of woman arousing for you or is there something else. I guess, like I said previously, i'm confused.

Dang, another winded post of mine. I gotta stop posting while in thought. Sorry. :rolleyes:

I look forward to reading Ken Singers book when its ready. Thanks

_________________________
Who is this doing the synthetic type of alpha beta psychedelic funkin?

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#131738 - 01/16/05 01:29 AM Re: On 'being gay'
Ivanhoe Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/19/03
Posts: 1907
Well, what's our, "mantra?" You felt alone, you are not alone, now, and you will never feel alone, again.
That is to say, of course, if you get a room full of men who have been sexually abused as boys, you will get every conceivable feeling and worry that you can imagine.
What does a "normal" boy worry about? You know some of those worries. Now pile on all of the shit that we had to contend with. Is it any wonder that we are not all in some luny bin somewhere?
My therapist talked about what it is for some of us to have had so much adreniline pumped through our systems when we were boys. He spoke of what it does to the brain and how it leads to ADD and a miryiad of other annomalies. Even now, someone sends me a complicated email and I've got to read it several times before I really get what they are talking about.
Can we have erections with the abusers in our lives and not get them and maintain them with the people that we love?
Are we more normal than the normals?
Most of this stuff we have to work out in therapy. And I always thought that meant, in individual therapy. Since I've been in a group of 7 guys, 8, counting the thereapist and I've attended two retreats WITH MEN

_________________________
"No soul is desolate as long as there is a human being for whom it can feel trust and reverence."
George Eliot

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#131739 - 01/16/05 03:13 AM Re: On 'being gay'
Glen Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/04
Posts: 71
Loc: Wisconsin
Quote:
Originally posted by Ivanhoe:
Well, what's our, "mantra?" You felt alone, you are not alone, now, and you will never feel alone, again.
That is to say, of course, if you get a room full of men who have been sexually abused as boys, you will get every conceivable feeling and worry that you can imagine.
What does a "normal" boy worry about? You know some of those worries. Now pile on all of the shit that we had to contend with. Is it any wonder that we are not all in some luny bin somewhere?
My therapist talked about what it is for some of us to have had so much adreniline pumped through our systems when we were boys. He spoke of what it does to the brain and how it leads to ADD and a miryiad of other annomalies. Even now, someone sends me a complicated email and I've got to read it several times before I really get what they are talking about.
Can we have erections with the abusers in our lives and not get them and maintain them with the people that we love?
Are we more normal than the normals?
Most of this stuff we have to work out in therapy. And I always thought that meant, in individual therapy. Since I've been in a group of 7 guys, 8, counting the thereapist and I've attended two retreats WITH MEN
Holy Cow this is way beyond being important to me.
I have the same problem with ie erections. I thought something was medically wrong with me. You have the same problem? Im not a perv but I need to know is there help for me? Or am I trapped?

_________________________
Please tell me why..

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#131740 - 01/20/05 04:10 PM Re: On 'being gay'
Morning Star Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: Home
Phill, first of all thank you for opening up this topic.
I had another round of hitting a body building websites and attraction is quite similar as yours.
This happens especially when I am feeling powerless. And when I see them stripping for me and smiling at me, giving me male attention, I need, I feel powerful, I feel loved ( as I noticed today) but after a while it subsides..I just do because it gives me a kick.

And yes guilt comes in later but less now. Now my guide has told me avoid that. Just go till you get bored. just dont masturbate, as it would amount to abuse again!!

So much for my Power struggle and my journey to find my authentic power... my strife to find power externally has landed me in trouble, so I better wise up and seek it within and I am sure this will be healed automtically.

_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#131741 - 01/21/05 11:11 PM Re: On 'being gay'
Indy Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/17/04
Posts: 25
Loc: Indiana
Morning Star

I can identify with what you write. I have visited websites and chat rooms in order to get a "fix" Then
have hated the feeling I got afterwards but nonetheless kept going back. It really was reabuse.
I'm not sure what it does for us-is there some practical reason, like we are trying to get strong enough to learn to fight it off?



Edited by Indy (03/17/07 07:26 PM)

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#131742 - 01/26/05 02:12 AM Re: On 'being gay'
Kraftsims Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/25/05
Posts: 10
Loc: Fort Worth, TX
This thread has helped reinforce what I've believed to be true ever since I first started trying to understand sexual orientation and what has happened to me. Here's my summation...

People have desires, affections, thoughts, etc. Just as we have a stomach that can cause a physical sensation (hunger), it also causes a thought (intangible) to pass through our brains (tangible). People who have addictions feel physical sensations, have affections/attractions/fantasies related to the drug, and so forth.

My point is, the human (as I understand it) is wired throughout for physical, emotional, mental, and (I believe) spiritual experiences. These experiences are real. Some argue the spiritual element isn't so. That's their belief. I believe there is a spiritual dynamic with which humans interact. Just as there are physical, emotional, and mental dynamics that impact us at any given moment.

I'm a believe that we are all searching for truth (explanation about our existance) and come up with our own conclusions. I can't say my conclusion is any better or worse than anyone else's, it is just what is real for me.

After searching and digging for many years, I have come to the conclusion time and again I would rather find some "objective other", something outside of me, to define what is real or not real about me. Why? My feelings, my thoughts, my affections, and my understanding about myself can swing so strongly. If I base my identity on feelings, affections, and physical stimulations, then my identity isn't solid and powerful: it can morph along with my urges, desires, etc.

The only thing that has worked for me is spirituality, finding an 'objective' other that defines who I am. Then it becomes an issue, for me, to try to understand how all humans fit into the paradigm/world view that I have adopted. By that, I mean, it is up to me to persist and pursue knowledge,trying to understand and to figure out how alcoholics, drug addicts, power freaks, the money lovers, sexual perverts, gay, straight, or whatever, fits into the world view I have choosen.

I'm a christian man. I'm not a gay basher, either. I'm not a 'gay' Christian. I'm just a heterosexual christian man who has some problems. My problems are mine, just as a person who rages (or whatever) has their problems. I view sexuality along that continuum of a problem. Not sexuality in general, but sexuality that tries to express itself outside of the original design propogated by orthodox biblical teachings. The straight adulterer, in my understanding, is no different (better or worse) than a person who has sex with men. Someone's affections may line up towards men or women, but to me, I don't let my feelings or affections tell me who I am. That's why I choose the 'objective other' viewpoint of spirituality to help me understand my identity.

Several, if not most, commented somewhere in one of their posts regarding confusion. I was also confused for the absolute longest until last year regarding my sexual attractions (primarily towards men) and how it related to Christianity. I hated the "christian" gay bashers. I just shudder, pray, and ignore them. They're not hate mongers (at least not most of them) in my opinion, just living out what they believe. Most Christians I've met are good decent people just like the person reading these words right now. They just have their problems, just as you and I do.

Having said all that, I don't really feel confused about my sexuality. I just don't doubt deep inside of me I'm a heterosexual being by nature, I just struggle with attractions towards the same sex. I hate the affections and feelings that don't line up with my personal belief system. Well, hate them when I try to 'do right.' Love them when I'm ready to feel the rush, the addictive high....

I respect all people on here for sharing their beliefs. Just as others shared theirs, I wanted to chime in that I see you guys as heterosexual men who have your own set of peculiar struggles.

What has brought me to this forum? I know I went through a dramatic shift from a happy boy to a sexual pervert in a matter of moments at the age of 5. I went into a doctors office. Doctor wanted to do a rectal temp. I protested. Then I cried and begged mom to tell him no. He insisted, mom just said, do it. I stopped crying when he inserted. It was as if electricity shot through me. I have never stopped being a pervert (by way of behavior, not identity) until last year. I want to cry when I get to this point.

I have never stopped trying to relive that moment until last year, so to speak. I has NEVER stopped. Not an issue of being 'gay,' as love was never a part of it. Just purile sexual contact.

I've been married 17 years, have two wonderful daughters, and a wife who seems to stick with me through thick and more thick. October 2003, I awoke one night and couldn't stop thinking about HIV. I wrestled with it for several hours. Long story short, got diagnosed as HIV+ in Nov 2003. Since then, I've been terribly depressed, then angry, then hopeful, then depressed, then hate myself, then love myself, then become hopeful, then get depressed again, and currently am pissed at life beyond measure.....

I shared with my sisters and mom on my 40th birthday month last september that I was HIV+. One sister called back the next day crying. She asked me if I remembered what happened when I was young. I started trembling inside and began feeling lower abdominal pain. I responded I didn't. Still don't. I didn't know what to say as she related that she and my other sister (they would have been 8/9 years of age) found me with my britches down in a closet at the local junior high one summer day. I was 5. She wondered why the man had whipped me so hard I was bleeding. It took them a long time to calm me down and clean me up.

My other sister was with her, but she didn't recall any of it. I didn't either. I was skeptical. It certainly would have made sense, but how could 2 out of 3 not remember even one piece of evidence? Not even one shred of memory? As the week went on, we tried to piece together the memories we could of that summer camp. then something clicked in all of us that we all remembered: my sisters wouldn't let me go into the boys room to pee. I was so embarassed to go into the girls room. They also wouldn't let me out of their sight. All that occurred the final 2 or 3 days of the last summer camp we ever went to. I do remember them being real upset and not letting me go into the boys bathroom, how they wouldn't let me out of their sight, and how they PROMISED they wouldn't tell mom I had gotten a terrible whipping (we had a rule: whipping outside of the house automatically resulted in a whipping inside of the house).

I just don't know what to say right now. I am swinging between: did it happen? Is it real? It certainly makes sense! Of course it happened! Did it really? Then why can't I recall it? Why can't my oldest sister recall finding me? Is my middle sister just making this up? Why do I feel so much anger deep inside of me that I've felt my whole life? Why did my parents get divorced at the age of 5? Why did mom marry an alcoholic physically abusive stepdad when I was 6? Why can't I just have peace and joy? Why do I hate myself so much? What happened at the age of 5 that caused my whole life to change? Was I really raped? Why do I feel sick as I type this and feel rectal pain? Why do I want to cry so bad right now? Why did I turn into a sexual addict, sexual pervert, who drowned his life sorrows in a bottle until last year? Why did my life suddenly and abruptly change at the age of 5 and never return to normal? Why can't I remember?

Rob

_________________________
Now to Him who is able to do, immeasurably more, than all we could ask or imagine

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#131743 - 02/09/05 07:39 PM Re: On 'being gay'
ForeverFighting Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 1058
Loc: New Mexico, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Morning Star:
As a child the first time I felt loved and sexually potent was at the same time. SO this wrong cross connection has been guiding my journey so far. I got love as male sexual attention. And concluded that was love was all about. Easy.

As I grew up I reenacted that same technique, repeatedly. I even tried exhibitionism when everything failed to get male attention. I felt powerful when I saw myself attractive. Not impotent and unable to attract love as I felt as a child.

Sex with men, or fantasizing became the easiest way to feel loved. Because that was the first time I felt loved as child. So even now when I am feeling low, I start acting as a child, I go to gay porn sites and feel loved instantly. I like to see men who are willing to ‘open up’ themselves up to me…as I did. That is why porn is so addictive, you are addicted to love. Love at the click of a button! What power and control, make anyone love you, strip for you.

My guide asked me to explore it further. That is when I realized an interesting thing, after a while I no longer felt the need to take it further, masturbate. Unless I was highly love deficient....

I am human and I need love. And when I don’t feel loved I go back to the same mechanism I learnt as a child. I replay it, again and again.

I know there must be better way to get love than in childhood patterns.

May be when I learn to love myself, I will also learn to receive love. And my endless seeking would end too.

\:\)
I'm new here. I stumbled upon your post through a search engine, and I'm absolutely floored. I could have written what you wrote.

I have been fighting the eternal cycle in the search for love all of my life since the abuse. I drift into the mode of having to be attractive, and you're right. It's a way of believing I have power this time. And in the neverending search for the perfect web image, it's the search for that guy who loves me. It sounds nutty--it's entirely fiction, but then that's what abuse does to a person. The only way to win "this time" is to create an ending that can only be fictional.

Thanks for posting. I think all of us feel, at one time or another, that there can't possibly be anyone out there feeling this way.

_________________________
ForeverFighting

"This search for the truth--it's not for the faint of heart."--Goren on 'Law & Order: CI'
"The former things will not be called to mind, neither will they come up into the heart."--Isaiah 65:17

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#131744 - 02/10/05 07:26 PM Re: On 'being gay'
KirkVin Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/10/05
Posts: 1
Loc: UK
Hi

This is a very interesting thread. I have just come to this web site and was going to post on this subject. I was abused by two different men while at boarding school, and soon after that one of the older boys started abusing me also, I was 10 a the time. Over the next couple of year I started to instigate immature sexual gratification with boys of my own age. When I left school was I confused I had a couple of female relationships but fantasized about men a lot. I was also very envious of gay men who had come out, as I thought that was me. Over the years I came to terms with the abuse realised I was not gay with the male fantasy happening very rarely. I am now married and 3 year's ago my wife and I had are first child. She went through server postnatal depression so a very active sex life pretty much came to a holt. We are having sex now but still very rarely, so I do not feel as sexual attached to her as I did before the birth of my first child. What's happening now is that I fantasy about gay sex all the time. On the occasions we are having sex I find it really hard to get into the man woman sex thing and am really worried about these effects. In some of the fantasy I think about the older boy abusing me, I have also started questing my sexuality again, even though I thought I had worked it out. Do you think that I am now associating my abuse with love as I am missing the close contact with my wife.


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#131745 - 03/04/05 10:42 PM Re: On 'being gay'
self_righting Offline
Member

Registered: 03/01/05
Posts: 69
Loc: Tampa, FL
This is an important but very difficult topic. I was reading the posts above and have come to realize that I am not alone in my problems with sexual identity. I don't know why, but it never ocurred to me how much the abuse tainted my sexuality. Like many of you, I find myself fixated on images that resemble my abuser and acting out in ways that later make me ashamed. I always assumed I was bisexual but now I am beginning to question that assumption. It just has been a part of me for so long I figured it was just who I am. Like many of you, I have no emotional attraction to males but the sexual isses seem endless. I'm glad I came here. This stuff is so painful... Think I'm gonna go have a good cry and come back and read some more.


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#131746 - 03/05/05 09:28 AM Re: On 'being gay'
bda Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/18/04
Posts: 26
Loc: North Carolina
Thanks for this open and honest discussion! It feel good to know and be known.

In reading Ken's post, I was deeply appreciative, but also felt like a significant point might be missing. I'm one of those that identify as gay (at least for the most part). My perp used my already exisitant questions about my sexuality as an entry point towards earning my trust. It was precisely in establishing himself as the one adult who could "handle" my being gay that he moved into my inner circle.

I guess my thought is that regardless of how we end up, kids struggling with sexual identity questions are particulalry at risk. Not that all SA survivors were struggling with those questions before, but certainly those of us who were being bullied and/or isolated on the playground in some pretty obvious ways made for easy targets to be exploited.

I don't mean to push a cause here, but it riles me that the church, and Boy Scouts, and all kinds of other groups continue to create cultures of silence around sexual identity that set kids up to look for affirmation wherever they can get it. Also please know that I'm nowhere close to meaning or implying ANY linkage between sexual orientiation/identity and abusers. That's not my point -- I just know from my story and stories of other men that our lack of safe spaces made us vulnerable to abusers seeking boys.

I just wish that part of the story got out there more -- that open and safe conversations about sexuality and sexual identity diffuse the power of the exploiters.

_________________________
Unbind him, and let him go.

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#131747 - 03/05/05 03:58 PM Re: On 'being gay'
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5775
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
BDA wrote:
Quote:
I'm one of those that identify as gay (at least for the most part). My perp used my already exisitant questions about my sexuality as an entry point towards earning my trust. It was precisely in establishing himself as the one adult who could "handle" my being gay that he moved into my inner circle.

I guess my thought is that regardless of how we end up, kids struggling with sexual identity questions are particulalry at risk. Not that all SA survivors were struggling with those questions before, but certainly those of us who were being bullied and/or isolated on the playground in some pretty obvious ways made for easy targets to be exploited.
This is an important piece of information. While those who "knew" that they were gay before being abused can say they have always been gay, what about those who experience sexual attractions to males AFTER the abuse?

What would you say to men in that category? Maybe if their sexual behaviors are re-enactmenmts of the abuse, one can be more certain it is a reaction to the abuse and not true orientation?

What about those whose same sex behaviors are self-defeating (i.e., picking partners who abuse them physically or emotionally)?

How about those who see themselves as bisexual or attracted (not necessarily in behaviors) to both genders?

This is a fascinating area to explore. I would welcome any input for the book, if you are willing to contribute to this discussion. Again, no information identifying anyone would be used beyond, "A survivor writes..." or "Another survivor said...."

Ken


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#131748 - 03/05/05 09:17 PM Re: On 'being gay'
bda Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/18/04
Posts: 26
Loc: North Carolina
I don't want to negate the experience of other voices in this conversation, and hope that my comments aren't perceived that way. Please forgive me if that's how they read. I have certainly spent years trying to figure out where I stand on my own sexual identity -- mostly around accepting responsiblity for the SA because I (though rather tentatively) identified myself as gay to my perp and somehow therefore deserved what I got. That thinking sure led to a few years fo therapy!

My concern is less about those of us who have --or had -- some sense clarity about sexual identity before the SA, but rather all the boys who are at risk because they are perceived to be gay.

Our homophobic culture alienates and isolates those boys so that whether or not they ever would have or ever do self-identify as gay, they're particularly vulnerable to attention from adult men. If you're not the "right kind of boy," then your experience of adult men likely ranges from ambivalence to repulsion. So boys who don't play the boy game well, regardless of their budding sexual identities, are targets of homphobic harassment, thus increasing their vulnerablities, thus making it pretty easy for a perp to move in.

I hope that this is making sense and I'm not just over-generalizing my own experience. My biggest frustration is that institutions have all too often responded to crises relating to the SA of boys by reinforcing homophobic ideologies, ironically perpetuating the circumstances that put at least some of those boys at risk in the first place.

I'll try and step off my soap box, now. I am deeply grateful for this community and all the men whose varied experiences give it such depth.

Peace,
Brian

_________________________
Unbind him, and let him go.

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#131749 - 03/06/05 07:30 AM Re: On 'being gay'
yesac76 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/23/04
Posts: 508
Loc: Idaho
I just wish I knew whether I was gay or straight. I sm just SO confused about it!

Casey

_________________________
"You live it or lie it" Metallica

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#131750 - 07/04/06 01:01 AM Re: On 'being gay'
lostcowboy Offline
Member

Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 797
Loc: North Texas
Just thought I would bump this up, for some of the new guys.

Take care,
Clifford

_________________________
"Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Just walk beside me and be my friend." - Albert Camus
Pretty much my life as I have posted so far. Triggers!

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#131751 - 07/06/06 03:43 PM Re: On 'being gay'
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Clifford,

It's a good idea you refloated this one. There's a lot of good stuff in here.

Just a small point I would like to add: Abuse has a catastrophic impact on the sense of sexual boundaries a boy is developing in childhood. It not only messes up what is already there, it also substitutes a lot of fears and terrible self-judgments for the healthy feelings and emotions that a boy SHOULD be building up. My point is that if a survivor is confused, there is absolutely no surprise in that.

On the old chestnut of "Am I gay?", "Am I straight?", I think that takes us nowehere because gay and straight aren't the opposites of each other - there are so many variations and shades of sexual orientation.

Why not just say "I am me"? I think that's just fine so long as I can answer yes to these questions:

1. Am I being honest with myself when I think about my sexuality?

2. Am I having a happy and fulfilling sex life?

3. Am I honest and responsible in my attitudes towards others?

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#131752 - 07/07/06 03:58 PM Re: On 'being gay'
ForeverFighting Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 1058
Loc: New Mexico, USA
It was helpful to read this thread again. How interesting to read my first post again. This was the thread that brought me here.

I've come so far since then, but I still fight the fight that made me choose "foreverfighting" as a name. Maybe I need to get "You're just looking for love" tattood backwards on my forehead. For so many of us, it has absolutely nothing to do with sex. It's the way we learned to be comforted, held, accepted without anything to hide behind. Of course, this is a site about being molested as a child, so the whole dream is a lie demonstrated to us by selfish perverts. But it's what we learned.

A friend of mine is terrified of water. When she was not even two years old, she came back from an irrigation ditch without her slightly older cousin who was later found drowned in that ditch. She doesn't remember that. She was too young. But she's afraid of water.

How much of what we are is beyond our consciousness? How much of the self-loathing I fight is a pattern of neurons in my head arranged by a man beating his crying infant black and blue? How many years of compulsively masturbating in the woods until I cried is because my uncle acted like he loved me in those woods? And how many web pages full of photos I dispise have I searched trying to find the me I am supposed to be in order to be loved, the hand that will reach out to me and tell me I'm OK?

I wonder how much was done to me that I will never remember. And I wonder how I'm supposed to end the war with an enemy who no longer exists?

This isn't about "gay" or "straight". This is about abuse and how it shoves all of us into a gray area we are unable to identify and find so difficult to change.

_________________________
ForeverFighting

"This search for the truth--it's not for the faint of heart."--Goren on 'Law & Order: CI'
"The former things will not be called to mind, neither will they come up into the heart."--Isaiah 65:17

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#131753 - 07/07/06 09:33 PM Re: On 'being gay'
Paul1959 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/17/06
Posts: 525
Loc: NYC
Wow...whoever brought this up for us new guys did a great service. this is a huge help in the struggle. I am also glad to see the idea of black and white knocked down. I get soo tired of that mindset. Am I happy living and loving in the area of grey where i exist? I think so...hope so...struggling to make it so.
I now completely believe the abuse skewed me...but then, years of coping and acting out have taken a toll with mind patterns etc.
again, nice to know I'm not alone.
Paul


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#131754 - 07/11/06 08:17 AM Re: On 'being gay'
Galapogos Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 110
Loc: usa
Wow is right.
I'll need to come back to write a post when I'm not so tired.. Did my csa cause my gay feelings? Is it possible to know? Is my identity defined by what I think and feel? What I do/my actions?

_________________________
Digging in the dirt
Stay with me I need support
I'm digging in the dirt
To find the places I got hurt
Open up the places I got hurt
--Peter Gabriel

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#131755 - 07/16/06 03:00 AM Re: On 'being gay'
Vanessa Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/16/06
Posts: 2
My husband was a victim of SA and he struggles with his sexual feelings. Make no mistake, he has no desire to have a reltionship, kiss hold hands with a man. It is purely a sexual desire. I believe since his first sexual experience was with his molester, he identifies with this. I don't think he is gay, but he does have gay desires. This is hard to accept for both of us, but we are trying to deal with it. I just wish I knew if we should embrace it further with role play or ignore it? I just want him to be happy and not feel the guilt that he does. Any suggestions?


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#131756 - 12/07/06 04:29 PM Re: On 'being gay'
compassion Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/07/06
Posts: 33
Loc: Illinois, US
So much is how we are sexually socialized...yeah? There are harsh lashes given for men and women who cross imposed gender lines...either the quarterback or the gay man (even without abuse...I change the oil in my car and he plays piano like Yanni...gender roles are narrow!!)?? I can fantasize about both genders, but clearly know that I can only couple with men. As a female survivor of ADULT rape, I have often empathized with my partner being a CHILD when he was abused...my adult mind could eventually seperate it all out. I knew I was heterosexual before I was raped. Had I been 3? What would I have known before that? A child's mind and sense of trust in the world is just very different. Being raped by a man didn't make me hate men or want to be with women, BUT...a child's mind...is a child's mind. You are just learning about trust, touch and gender. My partner had a long period of hanging out with gay men, but violently rejects that he is gay (now...is that a "doth protest too much"? or "I'm sick of the constant ribbing?"). As his partner I accepted him either way, BUT...I obviously would not partner long term with a homosexual man. We have seen the Oprahs where he was gay for the whole 12 years of the marriage...just good to figure it out before the wedding...that's all I can say. The process of sorting out is complex for him being abused by both a man and a woman. He used to hold deep resentments towards women...both for the abuse and for not protecting him from the other man. Seems to come down to truth and courage. What is his truth..does he know yet...should he know? Gay or confused? He shares the truth with me to the best of his ability and then I make a choice. Right now he says he is not gay so...there you go. I don't reject him for what he calls "his ugly side" (especially when so much of that was done to him and not chosen)...who is without that side? I just ask that he work hard at finding his truth and own his stuff. A partner's future rests in this palm, too. Our hardest battle has been him trusting anyone (and he does me) enough to get to the big and ugly. Sometimes I tell him to close his eyes...tell me what he wants to and then I tell him to open them....I say, "look...I'm still here!". I have always known that for him to be healthy...I was assuming some personal risk. I may not be what he needs when he is healthy, BUT...it is not about where we land, but how authentically we handle this journey.

_________________________
The ocean that flows in you; flows in me...all colors of humanity.

My "avatar" is a lotus...a beautiful flower that thrives in muddy water.

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#131757 - 12/07/06 11:45 PM Re: On 'being gay'
GuyD2006 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/06/06
Posts: 20
Loc: Louisiana
I agree that there is no 100% Gay or 100 Straight. Everyone falls somewhere in between. I was 4 the first time I was abused, he was a kid from the neighborhood. I would be abused again when I was 12. He was the coach of our basketball team. I can remember being attracted to other boys and fooling around with them at age 10 or so. So, I'm not sure if I was infulenced or not. In highschool I had many female sexual partners, but I also enjoyed fantasizing about boys and would often sneak peaks in the gym showers. I am married now and have been for 20 years. I had hook ups with both men and women during my marriage, I was out of control, I am a sex addict. I am now in recovery and seek to limit my sexual acting out. I am equally attracted to male and female. My therapist does not think I'm gay. When I see a handsome young couple, I can appreciate the beauty of both the boy and the girl. Who knows, maybe I should be happy that I can appreciate both sexes. It is difficult however at times. Society tries to label us. I'm Ok being me. I live, but for the will of God these days, and acting out sexually is not part of that. I try not to judge one way or the other. To each his own. Live and Let Live. Labels are not important. For me its all about being spiritual. I constantly struggle...The Spirit vs The Flesh. Now more than not The Spirit is winning. Don't know if this helped anyone? God Bless and Merry Christmas

Guy


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#144116 - 03/05/07 01:56 PM Re: On 'being gay' [Re: GuyD2006]
Daggenfel Offline
New Here

Registered: 03/04/07
Posts: 2
I often feel its sort of a paradox. I feel insecure because people think I'm gay; people think this, because I'm insecure.

As a teen I got it a lot. And after the SA in my mid-teens, I just blotted it out of my mind. If anything, it caused me to compensate and I became more macho. Became a gun-nut, adreneline addict, and gained a ton of weight (became very fat, actually). All the girls I knew then told me they were attracted to me because I was "so masculine."

Now, in my thirties, I lost the weight, changed locations and careers, and what started as culture shock from living in a foreign country and adapting to change became severe depression and self-doubt.

Then I started remembering things, SA, and other abuses in life. It drove me nuts. It also caused me to lose two girlfriends during the time (over 2 years).Seeing a T has helped, as I was determined to self-diagnose myself as everything from bipolar to autistic to avoid dealing with the things that truly happened to me. In becoming a "tough guy" I had numbed myself so much that I was oblivious to what had made me miserable.

But my point is, when this happened, and now, my confidence plummeted, I became very insecure about my identity in general, much less my sexual identity, and I found people asking me often if I was gay, and attracting men like I did when I was a teen. this made me feel even more insecure to the point where I began thinking that I may have been in terrible self-denial all my life, and was gay, but the truth is, I have never been attracted to a man.

But I found myself compulsively looking at transexual porn, and only that (my SA was from a transvestite) and it made me feel ashamed and vile. It took me back to the moment. The longer this went on, the more insecure I became, and the worse I seemed to solicit the attention of men. I got "caught" with it on my computer and then everyone either made of me or tried to "help" me by telling me to accept "my homosexuality." You can imagine how that felt.

You are damned if you defend yourself and damned if you don't. I don't think I should have to "prove" my heterosexuality to gain acceptance. Nor should I have to accept the label of homosexual just because others think so. I think many of the "macho" types I see here in Israel (and back where I grew up in Texas) are repressed homosexuals themselves.

One thing that lingers in my mind, is that my SA was interupted by a gay friend of a friend. I think that kept me from becoming more confused or homophobic. It would have been much worse without him showing up by chance. I was always confident about my sexual identity, and grew up around openly gay people (my mother works in theater) and I never imagined in a million years I would find myself this insecure, but here I am.

So, I think if I establish confidence in "who" I am, "what" I am shouldn't matter. I feel confused about everything, to be honest. but in the meantime being hit on in public by guys while I can't seem to get a date with a girl to save my life is really a bummer.



Edited by Daggenfel (03/05/07 02:00 PM)

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#144120 - 03/05/07 02:26 PM Re: On 'being gay' [Re: MollyHatchetrules]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
philly,its just another sterotype i think,people got to put people into neat little boxes but some of us dont fit and that scares them .for me its like ok your 22 single live alone ,no girlfriend , your not a he man jock or a crazy redneck ,well then you gotta be gay! heh in the normal world 2+2 =5! also i think it means more to others than it does to us you know? its like damn you get into the box!lol .its not a big deal to me either way but it seems to be to people around me.anything that dont fit the way they think scares them

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#210304 - 03/12/08 02:56 PM Re: On 'being gay' [Re: MollyHatchetrules]
JT's the Man Offline
Guest

Registered: 02/21/08
Posts: 41
I can completely relate with this post.

I was made gay twice. Well three times. First I was abused. Which fucked things up in my mind. Then I made a gay activist friend who had one mission in life: to get me to be gay.

Then after I dumped her another one came along with the same mission.

I find that idea as equally disturbing as people who hated me for thinking I was gay, simply becuase they didn't care what I was really.

I accept any additional comments on this topic.


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#210305 - 03/12/08 02:58 PM Re: On 'being gay' [Re: Vanessa]
JT's the Man Offline
Guest

Registered: 02/21/08
Posts: 41
yes i have a suggestion. While you make him realize that you accept him no matter what, help him to see that this is a merely SEXUAL desire, stirred up by abuse...

Hope that helps.

I have had to do it.

JT


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#211078 - 03/16/08 04:49 PM . [Re: JT's the Man]
bardo213 Offline
Guest

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 811
.


Edited by bardo213 (06/21/13 04:19 PM)

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#211273 - 03/17/08 02:28 PM Re: On 'being gay' [Re: bardo213]
VLinvictus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/05/07
Posts: 273
Loc: NY
I can empathize, certainly, with the feelings expressed on this thread. As gay man, though, I must say that the topic disturbs me just a bit. The notion that people can be "made gay" as the product of sexual abuse is one of the key arguments used by the anti-gay extremists to label my sexual orientation a psychological disease or disorder than can (and should) be "cured."

That being said, I totally feel for those who feel they have been pressured to adopt one identity or another. This notion that there is only "gay" and "straight" is false -- human sexuality is such a diverse and complicated thing that it can't be easily hammered into such a crude dichotomy. And it is true that young men in their formative years can get confused when sexuality is taken out of the joyful and pleasurable realm it belongs and made a tool of violence and abuse. This intensifies the crime of sexual abuse because it had the lingering effect of preventing young men from truly understanding and appreciating their own sexualities.

This dichotomy between "gay" and "straight," however, is a political result and in some ways a political necessity. In a world where every person were free to love, have sex, and form partnerships with whomever they consensually want, such terms as "gay" and "straight" would have no meaning. That heterosexual monogamy is imposed as the hegemonic cultural paradigm and that those who deviate from that norm are stigmatized and condemned has necessitated that those who do not fit within society's privileged norm to unite under one common banner to fight for our rights and freedoms.

The basis for sexual freedom, though, is not for any person to be pigeonholed into an identity by outside forces but for each person to freely explore and adopt an identity for themselves. Forcing a confused and struggling survivor to identify as "gay" is just as bad as forcing him to identify as "straight." What people -- survivors and otherwise -- need is freedom and space and love and support and acceptance to find out who they truly are, what they truly want, and to form an identity for themselves.

_________________________
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
~ Oscar Wilde

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#211277 - 03/17/08 03:47 PM Re: On 'being gay' [Re: VLinvictus]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: VLinvictus
What people -- survivors and otherwise -- need is freedom and space and love and support and acceptance to find out who they truly are, what they truly want, and to form an identity for themselves.

Amen, my friend.

M


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#215855 - 04/06/08 01:40 PM Re: On 'being gay' [Re: MarkK]
JDrock Offline
New Here

Registered: 03/28/08
Posts: 12
I can relate to many of the posters in this thread.

I was molested when I was 11 and I am sexually attracted to men more than women since the age of about 18-19. When I was aged 18-19 though, I was taking drugs and it was during one of these drug taking session that I recalled my CSA and the feelings associated with it.

I am now 26 and hopelessly confused about my sexual identity. I want to be with a woman but I have little feelings towards them and I am not really interested in the actual act of sex with men despite the sexual attraction, which may or may not be due to the association between the stimulus (the perp) and the sexual feeling of being touched.

To make the matter more confusing, when sleeping with women I would often have a 'cold' feeling. I also remembered an incident that occurred when I was about 5. I was watching TV on my mothers lap and suddenly I turned to her and said, "I’ll show you how boyfriends and girlfriends kiss" and tried to kiss her. She of course stopped me and laughed it off but I had these deep feelings of rejection and coldness. The striking thing was I did not know why I had done this. It was purely subconscious Freudian stuff.

I am beginning to think most people have the capacity to be bi-sexual, if you look at situations where access to sex with women is not present (ships, prisons, closed societies like Indian and Arabic and boarding schools) homosexual activity is common. CSA may make a psychological connection between a male perp and sexual excitement but I doubt it makes someone completely gay. My definition of a gay person is someone who only finds members of the same sex attractive. Personally, I believe I do not find women attractive because of an incident that occurred with my mother, which make me 'cold' to women or the male-female relationship model. Sorry for babbling on, I just thought I would share my experiences with trying to understand my sexuality. Confusing stuff! I am seriously considering becoming a reclusive monk, far less complicated.


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#219070 - 04/19/08 10:42 AM Re: On 'being gay' [Re: PhillyPa]
surrender1 Offline


Registered: 04/19/08
Posts: 3
Loc: Gaylord Michigan
It's been almost 12 years ago that I finally admitted I was SA as a child who was about 9 years old, I'm now 48. As recently as three weeks ago my marriage of 6 years fell apart and will end in divorce as a direct result of my continued confusion over sexual identity. We have a 5 year old boy who is the light on my horizon. In fact having a child I was the stay at home parent and still am to protect him from a sometimes cruel world. Today I choose to fight......
I too have had many fantasies of having a sexual relationship with another man and yet wanting to be a heterosexual man. Recently I followed through and met up with a man. Afterwards it was like I was numb and inexpressive to what had just taken place. Today I take a leap of faith not to save my marriage but to salvage what life I have left and not to put closer on my past but to try and understand it and deal with it instead of seeping it under the rug. I'm currently in therapy and doing some real sole searching. I have forgiven my abuser who was an older brother. This I did for me not him. Now that my secret is out I can begin to heal and feel the anger, sadness, fear, and uncertainty that is todays destiny for me. I hated God for a long time until a friend said to me that I was here for a special purpose. I did not understand that comment until I had a child of my own. That is my experience being a survivor can help others as the posts before mine have helped me know I AM NOT ALONE. I've rambled enough....


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#219086 - 04/19/08 12:41 PM Re: On 'being gay' [Re: bardo213]
LandOfShadow Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 684
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
Quote:
... and just learn to love yourself and not be ashamed and fearful. of what has happened everyone has a problem or two. We just need to learn proper tools for learning to deal with these symptoms.


So, so true. It is my own voice that's been so hard to find.

For me, this has just been/made impossibly difficult. On top of the deep confusion of CSA, are the massive waste of "culture wars", million watt transmitters of absolute ignorance, the silent of good men and women, the resounding silence of absent parents, teachers and others.

Here in the US, the politization of sexuality has been disasterous not because the rignt wing is wrong, but because the middle ground, the complexity, the gentleness and ambiguity dealing with our sexuality is lost. Black and white thinking gets us nowhere.

_________________________
Et par le pouvoir d’un mot Je recommence ma vie, Je suis né pour te connaître, Pour te nommer
Liberté

And by the power of a single word I can begin my life again, I was born to know you, to name you
Freedom

Paul Eluard

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#219100 - 04/19/08 01:55 PM Re: On 'being gay' [Re: MollyHatchetrules]
dannym Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/24/07
Posts: 543
Loc: Boulder, Colorado
I just wanted to chime in my experience.

I identify as gay. That only occured last year. I am 44 years old and have been with my wife for 25 years. I love her very much and enjoy sex with her. But I have always known I am more attracted to men. My fantatasies have always been around males. My issue, is that I always thought, because I was abused at an early age (1st time age 6 - second time ages 8-14), I was re enacting the the abuse - but I have been in therapy, done exhaustive thining, reflecting and self-evaluation, and i know I am gay - or if you know about the Kinsey scale, probalby a 4 or 5.

My point is, CSA does cause sexual confusion, but for me, once i started to untether all the muck and evaluate my sexuality, I discovered who I am... and it is very nice to know. Do I "want" to be gay? Hell no! It is much more convenient given the world we live in and my domestic situation, to be straight, but wishin' don't make it so. I am who I am... I identify as gay, but i am married with a wonderful family and have a wonderful relationship with a man that i am exploring my feelings with. Is it easy.... good God, No no no... but it is where I am and who I am.

Just my thoughts... sort of off the main topic, sorry about that.

Dan

PS... I am, for the first time in my life, feeling "good" about being sexual... feels really good!



Edited by dannym (04/19/08 01:56 PM)
_________________________
"You should listen to your heart, and not the voices in your head."

Marge Simpson

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#219470 - 04/21/08 10:54 AM Re: On 'being gay' [Re: dannym]
surrender1 Offline


Registered: 04/19/08
Posts: 3
Loc: Gaylord Michigan
After contemplating my above statement I have to agree with LandofShadow, that it is my VOICE that I have lost. In the secret world of my SA I quivered over the littlest of things in life. I seemed to be looking over my shoulder and no one was ever their. Today I make a choice to get help for my past behaviors and with what hand I've been dealt. What ever my sexual identity gay, bi-sexual, heterosexual, take that leaping willing...


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#349508 - 01/01/11 02:41 PM Re: On 'being gay' [Re: ForeverFighting]
WriterKeith Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 915
Loc: southern California
Your post is worded superbly. Please keep contributing. Your POV and the way you express it is very helpful.

_________________________
Keith
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JfvAPZGjds

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#354343 - 02/21/11 02:10 PM Re: On 'being gay' [Re: MollyHatchetrules]
alanhoops Offline


Registered: 02/21/11
Posts: 21

I can relate to the arrested development issue. I still feel like a little kid even though I'm in my fifties. I am still surprised when I look in the mirror and see an older man. Sometimes I feel like I'll never feel like a man or feel masculine because of the CSA. All the name calling made me believe I was inferior to the other boys. Fantasizing about them only made me believe they were right. But my fantasies were mostly about pleasing them like I did the abuser,not having a loving relationship. Kissing was not ever a thought. Just being used by these superior boys and hoping they might like me for doing such a favor for them is what I hoped for. Thankfully it was all fantasy as I would have more regrets and shame.


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#355951 - 03/08/11 07:22 PM Re: On 'being gay' [Re: alanhoops]
Michael Murphy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/02/11
Posts: 19
Loc: United States
I can relate to this , I have been Gay and guess still am in a way. After what happened to me with my mother, I found that I liked sex with guys growing up. But I didn't date butch I went for guys that were either transgender or shemales. I Like the beauty of a woman , but not the woman herself. If that makes any sence at all. I was in prison for almost 5years and never feed my hunger for closeness of sex. I meet a girl that was gay and we became friends and are married now 15 years. She was also abused. but its werd she know what I have done and me her and it doesn't matter. Yes When I get into a hating mood of woman by a trigger or something I want out of our life together, but that goes away after 10 min. I don't know if I am still gay or staright, and it doesn't matter. I have been with both and enjoyed both. Since I have confronted my mother I haven't been able to have sex with my wife with out feeling bad. I can't though 15 years away, but I would rather have sex with a man then a woman. But I do love my wife she is my best buddy.

_________________________
Michael Murphy

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#356096 - 03/10/11 09:53 AM Re: On 'being gay' [Re: Michael Murphy]
Avery46 Offline


Registered: 09/23/10
Posts: 1243
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Michael Murphy
...I don't know if I am still gay or staright, and it doesn't matter.


It is true - it does not matter. I have been married and had a male partner. I enjoyed both for a time.

I find myself attracted to both so bi-sexual but, I go more for intimacy at this time instead of JUST sex.

D

_________________________
aka DJsport

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#357892 - 03/28/11 03:41 AM Re: On 'being gay' [Re: MollyHatchetrules]
promnwtn Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/30/05
Posts: 12
Loc: US -TN
I agree with a commonly held thought that sexuality is a continum between abolute homosexuality and heterosexuality with most of being somewhere between the extremes. Thats not to say we actively engage in overt sexual conduct with other males but rather it can be expressed in various forms. After my abuse I lothe homosexuals labeling my perp as one. But in time came to understand myself and my volitional same sex activities. Now I do not care for labels "straight", "gay" or "bi". "I am what I am" said Popeye the sailor. And I am begining to like me.


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#357904 - 03/28/11 08:52 AM Re: On 'being gay' [Re: promnwtn]
stefalc1 Offline


Registered: 04/30/08
Posts: 41
Loc: london, uk
I feel that my sexuality is undefined and is different everyday , it is hard to like yourself sometimes and not feel an outcast in society but the sex thing i think for me now is an old mind numbing argument that i think will be with me the rest of my life, i relate to the male friend thing, as in where is the line and how to act but i can also relate to the gay issues and also struggle in hetro relationships, but one thing i am starting to learn is that with men it is more obsessive than love or lust and after any contact in the past i have not felt an urge to go back and felt guilty and with women it feels good after any intimacy although i am always keeping them at arms length and only letting them in my space when i am comfortable.
I know i am capable of sleeping with a guy but i know i could never have a relationship with a guy in the same way i would with a woman so i guess that makes me leaning on the straight side of things. i guess that it is all about how we were introduced sexually to the world


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