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#131723 - 01/10/05 02:42 PM On 'being gay'
PhillyPa Offline
Member

Registered: 12/20/04
Posts: 64
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
The juries still out on wether sa can cause someone to be homosexual. However, it seems accepted that sa could cause homosexual feelings.

That being the case, why are there militants from both sides of the fence?
If you've experienced homosexual feelings, there's those that say, "your normal. come out of the closet and take pride in what you are."
Then, there's the hatred: "homosexuality is a sin, an abomination. god hates fags."

Each side is equally as frustrating to deal with. You don't really know what you are, but each side wants to persuade you to their side.

I think there are self-labeled gay men who are not really gay, but confused. But, The other side acts more like a rebound in that it causes people with gay feelings to find acceptance from the 'gay pride' types. In other words, they do nothing for their 'cause'.

I guess what i'm trying to say, is that it's next to impossible to think your way through your feelings when youve got to deal with others who either tell you your feelings are normal or otherwise.

I cant say wether i'm gay or not. I dont want to be. My feelings for the same sex are unhealthy. Then again, I think I hate women because my mother beat the shit out of me but also molested me. In hind sight, the only positive attention I got from a male was when I was molested by one. I didnt have a father growing up, so I think I fit the mold of someone confused sexually.

All I can do is remain abstinent and single until I can figure out the issues. Thats a tough road, but really cant burden anyone with the issue.

Unfortunately, there are these vultures. Mostly from the homosexual side, who seem to 'want me to come out' - they see my single status as proof of homosexuality. This could be just my paranoia, but it feels like I am being hit on alot (not just by men, but women).

Geeze, what a long post. Sorry.

_________________________
Who is this doing the synthetic type of alpha beta psychedelic funkin?

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#131724 - 01/10/05 03:31 PM Re: On 'being gay'
Raphael Offline
Member

Registered: 10/10/04
Posts: 67
I can relate a lot to what you wrote. As you said it is accepted that SA can cause homosexual feelings. I know that from personal experience. And I believe that many survivors of SA, both male and female, may end up thinking that they are gay, only based on the confusion caused by the abuse. It is tough.

I grew up remembering and trying to hide the terrible sexual “initiation” I had, feeling guilty and ashamed. I would act out the effects of that traumatic experience since the age of 3-5 but instead of the adults around me read the signs that said “something's wrong here. He needs help. There is something going on”, they would cruelly reinforce the abuse and would start saying that I was gay. So I grew up with everyone doubting my sexual orientation and most people actually betting that I was gay, and eager to see me come out of the closet, accept what they thought I was. They had it all figured it out for me!

Of course I asked that question to myself many, many times: “Am I gay?” But when I would think it through I would always agree that:

yes, I had attraction to males,
yes, I had gay sexual fantasies,
but no, I would never see myself in a romantic relationship with a guy,
no, I would never see myself living with another man for the rest of my life and getting old by his side.
yes, I was also attracted to girls (so you are bi – some would quickly say, trying to label me)
yes, I would like to have children, have a family, grow old with them
yes, I was able to love a man. I have many friends whom I love very much and would feel good to get close to them, and hug them.
But no! I would never want to have sex with them…

so what would all that make me? Confused!

Another thing that was always clear to me was that all my homosexual fantasies were/are a repetition of what went on during the abuse: oral sex. Even today, when I suffer from addiction to gay porn sites (and am desperately trying to heal from this before it ruins my life!) the only things I want to see in those sites is oral sex. If I see any scene of penetration or kissing or whatever it really turns me off and disgusts me. (sorry if I am being too blunt… I don't want to offend anyone)

I am still paranoid of people labeling me “gay”, I am still uncomfortable with my own body and with being a man. I am tall and people see me as a handsome man – but my self image is still very poor. One day I decided to join a martial arts class and on my second week of class the instructor paired me with a veteran student for one of the exercises. Inside my head I was so afraid of “fighting” with that other man (I am not violent at all) and was afraid that I would chicken out, that I would be hurt, that he would think I was gay. Well, to my surprise, his comments to the instructor was “What! Don't put me with that big guy!” Big guy?, I thought to myself, where? It was the first time that I started to realize that my self image has been really distorted.

Anyway, sorry for this long post but as you can see I am still very confused and suffer a lot from this.


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#131725 - 01/10/05 04:14 PM Re: On 'being gay'
MollyHatchetrules Offline
Member

Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 31
Loc: Hoover, AL USA
It's my opinion that even if a person is sexually active with someone of the same sex, they are not gay unless they want a long-term emotional relationship with someone of the same sex. I have never done anything with a man, but I still label myself gay because I have wanted a relationship with a man for as long as I can remember. Abuse can definitely confuse someone about their orientation. It can easily make someone who is not gay think they are. And I don't think that we will ever completely understand what rape/abuse does to the mind, so I do think it's possible that if it happens to someone before their orientation has developed (before puberty) it does have the potential to lead to homosexuality, assuming that the person is genetically predispositioned for it. I first started noticing men when I was ten, and I was abused for the first time when I was eleven. So that gave me the idea that there was something wrong with the feelings I had towards men. It had me wondering if that was always going to happen when I was with a man. I am twentyone now and I am still not ready to trust a man enough to have a relationship. I would like to think that I'll be able to truse a man someday, but right now I don't know. I'm what the gay community would refer to as a "stag-fag". That's a gay man who prefers the company of heterosexual men over homosexual men. I prefer it because that way I don't feel pressured to try anything (you know what I'm talking about) that I am not ready for. I've got off topic so I'll stop now.

_________________________
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you will join us
And the world will live as one
-John Lennon

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#131726 - 01/10/05 05:13 PM Re: On 'being gay'
Aden Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/04
Posts: 499
One reason for sexual confusion is that no one is sexually certain. None of us are 100% one way or the other. Society itself is confused as to the very nature of sexual orientation. We try to fight our way thru to a self definition while swimming in muddy water. Everybody wants to believe that they are playing on the right team, but nobody even knows the rules of the game.

Somewhere between Biblical Assertions and Gay Pride, the rest of us just get horny at odd moments for no clear reasons. Being sexually confused is normal. It is the expectation of sexual certainty that is perverse.

Aden


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#131727 - 01/11/05 12:12 AM Re: On 'being gay'
Ivanhoe Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/19/03
Posts: 1907
Well, a spirited thread, I must say. And, one we must get Ken Singer to respond to. I will PM him to see if I can get him to break away from clients, book writing, gardening, and wife's "honey do" lists, long enough to comment here.

In the mean time, allow me to add a cent or two.
I understand that sexual orientations are established by the time someone is five years old. Since some of us were exposed to early sexual activity, maybe more than playing doctor, I would assume that abuse from older children or adults would be highly confusing to our later sexual preference for girls or boys, men or women.
What some of us may not realize is that we could even be somewhat fixated or stuck in some period of developmental stage of our lives. That is to say, some of us could have a little of the Peter Pan syndrome, in that we are stuck and have yet to grow up into the men we were meant to be.
I think that is a particular problem of mine. I was so frightened by what I saw the adults doing around me that I refused to have anything to do with them...they will only hurt, confuse or abuse you.
With that, you'd think that one would want to grow up as fast as they could and be an adult as fast as they could so that THEY could be in charge. I think that I did that. As a matter of fact, I think that I became an adult-child. I was/am an adult, but have childlike wants and desires, not ever being able to be the man I always wanted to be.
So my sexual acting out was only wanting to remain the boy, and the fear of actually being with a woman was something that a boy simply couldn't do.
I finally fell in love with a beautiful woman, as beautiful inside as she is on the surface.
But the Peter Pan in me, continued to fight for supremacy. I was never "anywhere" but with her during our love making, but I continued to have my fixated fantasies of someone of 13 years of age, during the rest of the day or evening. Make sense to anyone else? Has anyone discovered this or similar from therapy.
So, what I'm suggesting, is that some of us may also have another factor involved, arrested development.
Oh shit, not something else to think about...will this abuse stuff never end.

David

PS...I'm gunna get Ken, now.

_________________________
"No soul is desolate as long as there is a human being for whom it can feel trust and reverence."
George Eliot

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#131728 - 01/11/05 02:21 AM Re: On 'being gay'
Rustam Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 471
Loc: UK
This issue has come up quite a bit since I joined, I always find it interesting and it has given me lots to think about and insights into myself.

I am in a gay relationship have been for eight years. My abuse started very early so I cant remember a time before it happened, and I was abused by both sexes. I expect that all my brothers were abused; as I was, all five are heterosexual.

I don’t know that the jury is out about abuse causing someone to become homosexual. Abuse can cause homosexual behaviour but not homosexuals. Abuse causes people to re-enact the abuse through homosexual and heterosexual behaviour. But it seems unlikely that it can cause someone to become homosexual. The homosexual behaviour causes confusion about sexuality. The kind of behaviour described by some people here about re-enacting the abuse like being fixated on a particular act or acting out in a very fixed pattern is not about being homosexual. Naturally it is very confusing and anyone seeing a married man looking at gay porn or seeking anonymous sex with men would think they were closet cases, but understanding abuse issues shows this not to be the case.

I have acted out heterosexually and homosexually but I am increasingly aware of the difference in that behaviour and my real sexuality which is more gay than straight. I know the difference between sexual fantasies that are re-enactments of the abuse and my given sexuality. I am still pretty messed up about sex but I think that sex is an expression of love and that however I manage to love and be loved is the issue for me. If I had waited to sort out the confusion I had/have I might as well have lived in a monastery, I have managed to have honest relationships that have enriched my life with both sexes.

If gay and straight were seen as equally valid forms of love knowing what we really are and living that would be a lot less complicated and would be burdened with less shame about homosexual acting out.

Rustam.


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#131729 - 01/11/05 03:06 PM Re: On 'being gay'
PhillyPa Offline
Member

Registered: 12/20/04
Posts: 64
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Ok, this is ok. I'm not alone on this issue. I cringed to check back this thread fearing it would be over looked or ignored. Thanks for opening up like this.

I am impressed by the guys who are married who have had this issue. Also impressed by the ones who are comfortable with their identity. I like finding the common ground between we single guys, still wondering who we are.

As for the being a late bloomer, or having arrested development, so true. I am a kid trapped in a mans body. I eat like a kid (candy, cookies and milk - I just ate a fruit roll up), wear clothes like a kid, and basically always look for stimulation like a kid (drive fast, go to concerts, blast heavy metal music). I read this as an attribute to SA.

Lately, ive been doing the comparisons with my peers. They wear these clothes I cant afford (because I need to buy games for my playstation 2), and when I try to dress like them - it just doesnt look right. It looks like I try too hard, so ive resigned to being a child with limited guilt. Someday, I think, that may change but its not worth beating myself up over - especially since I work where there really is no dress code.
But, I do see recognition of my abuse as a sign of maturity.

_________________________
Who is this doing the synthetic type of alpha beta psychedelic funkin?

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#131730 - 01/11/05 04:20 PM Re: On 'being gay'
Jake_t2398 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 131



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#131731 - 01/12/05 03:45 AM Re: On 'being gay'
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5780
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
This is an excerpt from the book I am writing. Please do not copy or distribute it since it has not been edited and is still in early draft form. It may answer some of the issues here.
Ken

“If I got an erection, had an orgasm or ejaculated during the abuse with a male, does it mean I’m gay?” This is a common response to sexual abuse. Because the victim’s penis is often stimulated by the abuser through touch or body contact, the victim may believe that his erection betrayed him or is somehow an indicator that he is homosexual. While there is no research that confirms sexual abuse causes homosexuality, many victims believe that this experience, particularly if it is the first encounter of a sexual nature, results in becoming gay. Since nearly ten per cent of the population is homosexual or bisexual, there are a number of boys who, regardless of sexual abuse history, would have been “naturally” gay later on.

Sometimes the abuser will use the fear of homosexuality in a boy as a way to get him to go along with the abuse, justify the abuser’s actions, or to blackmail the youth into further sexual acts or prevent him from disclosing. Many abusers I’ve worked with have told their victims that the erection was “proof” the victim “wanted” the sexual contact, or that his erection was “proof” he was really gay. It has also been a blackmail tool to scare the boy into believing that people would know he was gay, as if that is worse than being abused or that the abuser molested the child.

Sometimes the victim becomes fixated on penises. Thoughts of performing oral sex on men or boys become the theme of sexual fantasies for some. For those who are truly homosexual, this is a natural source of arousal. For the male victim of same sex abuse, the penis may have a different meaning in the recurrent fantasies. What we find sexual can also be termed “erotic”. If you are heterosexual, the thought of a woman’s body can be quite stimulating. Because our sexual conditioning may involve a focus on body parts, some men become particularly interested or aroused by breasts, or buttocks, or legs. Others become attracted to the vulva or vagina. There is no “right” way on to be attracted.

WARNING - - MAY BE TRIGGER WITH GRAPHIC SEX

I worked with a man years ago that was obsessed by legs, feet and women’s shoes. He reported that his mother used to come home from work and ask him to massage her legs and feet. She moaned as he worked her on legs and said things like, “Oh, you’re so good. That feels great, yes, yes!” He said he remembered often being sexually aroused and during one massage session with her, when he was about 11, he experienced his first orgasm and ejaculation. He later associated sexual response with women’s legs, feet and shoes. The greatest turn on for him during sex was to kiss his partner’s feet and massage her legs. He was also a big consumer of pornographic magazines that cater to those attracted to legs, feet and shoes. He concluded that had he not been eroticized to his mother’s legs and feet as a boy, he would have had a more normal sexual attraction to a woman’s body and not fixated on her legs and feet.

“What if I think about penises a lot? Does that mean I’m gay?” Not necessarily. The man described above associated sexual pleasure with his mother’s (and later his partners’) legs, shoes and feet. If a boy experiences powerful sexual feelings while sucking his abuser’s penis, or having his own penis licked, or touching or being touched on the penis, he may make a similar association. In addition, as teenagers discovering masturbation, we reinforce the pleasurable feelings with the sight and feel of our own penises. So, with a “normal” (that is, non-abusive) sexual history, we will have a neutral to good association with penises. They make us feel good, powerful, and alleviate boredom.

But when the sexual feelings are forced, unwanted, confusing, even painful, the association with the penis can be contaminated. Some men hate their penis because it “betrayed” them by getting erect in an abusive situation. Because the male abuser, particularly when there are negative feelings towards him, has a penis, some survivors may associate the penis with the hurt, betrayal, humiliation, shame, and guilt from the abuse. Think of the confusion one might feel from having these negative emotions about the abuse or abuser, and trying to feel good about one’s sexuality and penis.


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#131732 - 01/12/05 05:46 PM Re: On 'being gay'
MollyHatchetrules Offline
Member

Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 31
Loc: Hoover, AL USA
Ken, I understand what you were saying about how a person can hate their penis, and other parts of their body because they feel like they were betrayed by their body during abuse. I went through that until I was eighteen. For me it was a bit different though. I didn't realize it at first, but it wasn't my penis that I hated. It was my circumcision. The guy who had hurt me was also cut, so for reasons that I have absolutely no understanding of I started to associate that with what he did. It got to the point that I went through a process called foreskin restoration, or uncircumcision. That means I stretched what was left of the skin until it eventually looked as if nothing had been removed. And I have absolutely no idea why, but it has made me feel better about myself and my body image. I don't have any negative feelings towards that part of my body any more. I have even regained some sense of masculinity that was lost during abuse. Does this make any sense to anyone?

_________________________
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you will join us
And the world will live as one
-John Lennon

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