Newest Members
andrewmartin, Aurigny, Luther, LuckyCharm, Jennifer Lyons
12251 Registered Users
Today's Birthdays
Beyond Abuse (51), dona (55), JoMiFa (35), norbrill1 (62), RubyRoberts (62)
Who's Online
0 registered (), 36 Guests and 2 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
12252 Members
73 Forums
63106 Topics
441316 Posts

Max Online: 418 @ 07/02/12 07:29 AM
Twitter
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >
Topic Options
#131572 - 08/28/04 01:46 PM what or who am i?
guy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/30/04
Posts: 236
Loc: nc
gee, neat new forum to post on.

so here i am, twice divorced, two live ins and now back with my current love of all, a female.

i acted before. i did it again 3 months ago after a breakup and while suffering from depression.

my g/f thinks there is something deep and hidden.

I felt like depraved, dirty afterward. but i think i needed to feel that way.

i also though could have done the same with women, prostitutes, or cheap easy fuck girls but didn't.

i also know my acting out could be re-creating my abuse.

i just don't know. i love my girlfriend, her pussy, breasts, ass, softness, everything womanly.

i don't know why the hell i have done or do things.

what am i without a label?

guy


Top
#131573 - 08/28/04 02:03 PM Re: what or who am i?
ScottyTodd Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 02/12/03
Posts: 1561
Loc: Pennsylvania
Guy - Many abuse survivors struggle with that question. It perplexes and confuses to no end!! There are several ways to approach this...I'll share one here. When you are having sex with a woman, what fantasies are playing in your mind (male/female) ? When you are having sex with a guy (bj's etc.) what fantasies are playing in your mind (male/female)? Your answer may provide a piece to your puzzle.

Howard

_________________________
If you think you can or you can't - you're right!.......anon
It's never too late to have a happy childhood!.....anon
You're very normal for the abnormal situation you've been through..............S. Todd

Top
#131574 - 08/28/04 02:36 PM Re: what or who am i?
brian-z Offline
Member

Registered: 07/11/02
Posts: 770
Loc: Western USA
Quote:
Originally posted by guy:
i like and accept gay people.
Oh how nice of you, lol.

ok kidding aside. Don't listen to your hart, and don't listen to your head. Listen to your penis, Mr. Happy is the only one that can answer questions about one's sexuality. To put it another way, what do you think about when you masturbate. If it's Ms. July it's a safe bet you are a straighty, if it's Michael Phelps well you get the picture. True acting out has jack to do with sexuality.

Moving on to a broader issue can a gay guy fall in love with a girl and have lot's of happy bumpy bumpy, you bet. Because love has jack to do with sexuality. Now, you can make all kinds of arguments about how I'm wrong with that last statement so I'll give you my response to them now. Straight guys tend to fall in love with females because they are out looking for girls. And Gay guys are out looking for other gay guys.

Don't worry about labels. It'll work it's self out .


Top
#131575 - 08/28/04 04:13 PM Re: what or who am i?
crisispoint Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 2154
Loc: Massachusetts
First, Brian: Leave it to you to be so frigging direct ("Mr. Happy," "bumpy-bumpy")! \:D

But I also agree with what you're saying. I'm so completely screwed up about my sexuality, it's not funny. I fantasize about women and men. I f**k women and men. I make love with women and men (yes, there's a difference, imho). What does it make me?

Bi? Maybe.
Straight, but "acting out?" Maybe.
Gay, but in denial? Maybe.

WHo the Hell cares? If you're in a monogamus (sp?), what does it matter? You won't f**k around anyway because you love this person and want to remain loyal and monogamus with them. Fantasies notwithstanding.

I'm slowly getting into a relationship, and yes, it's with another man. He's treated me with respect. he cares about me. He wants me to be well. If it's love, great. Guess I'll be "living a gay lifestyle." But does it make me gay?

In this case, yes. But it may not curb the appreciation of females.

It's a strange situation we find ourselves in. Introduction to sex at an early age, in an abusive way, can seriously screw up your sexual development. Obvious that is, but it needs to be repeated. So let's just find out where we stand, and let it happen. As long as the relationship isn't an abusive one.

Peace and love,

Scot

_________________________
There are reasons I'm taking medication. They're called "other people." - Me, displaying my anti-social tendancies

fromacuriousmind.blogspot.com
malehurtandsurvive.blogspot.com

Top
#131576 - 08/29/04 11:10 AM Re: what or who am i?
guy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/30/04
Posts: 236
Loc: nc
thanks guys

you have helped me some.

brian z - sorry it came out that way. i just do have co-workers, gay friends, and famaily and it came out that way.

i guess i should have said that i like people in general and do not care what their orientation is or was.

when i am masterbating or havning sex, i am thinking of the personi am with and not fantasizing about a guy when i am with a women.

when i acted out, i was thinking of the sex, the scaredness, the penis, cumming, the being aroused but felt dirty, naughty, depraved during and after. but i like all those feelings, and went back again. maybe that is my s.a. of re-creating.

who cares i guess. i just gotta take care of myself and my emotions and deoression and anxiety. i guess i wil be comnfused but believe in monogamy and have been and will be that with any true partner i have. i will not act out on my kink or twisted thoughts as they occur. i do not someone doing that to me.

thanks brothers, guy


Top
#131577 - 08/29/04 11:23 AM Re: what or who am i?
brian-z Offline
Member

Registered: 07/11/02
Posts: 770
Loc: Western USA
Hey Guy,

You don't need to appoligize for anything. I just thought the way it was wordded was funny. If anyone should say they are sorry it's me for commenting on it in the first place, but I never appoligize for anything. lol


Top
#131578 - 08/29/04 08:02 PM Re: what or who am i?
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Guy
we share this problem, although I haven't acted out with another man for 6 years.

Quote:
Listen to your penis, Mr. Happy is the only one that can answer questions about one's sexuality. To put it another way, what do you think about when you masturbate. If it's Ms. July it's a safe bet you are a straighty, if it's Michael Phelps well you get the picture. True acting out has jack to do with sexuality.
Brian speaks for me as well.
I fully agree that hetero's are attracted to women, gays to men, that's accepted.
I'm attracted to women ( even if I have been married for 30 years, I still look \:D ) and I have never in my life looked at a guy and thought "I'd just love to fuck him - give him a bj - fall in love with him"
Not even when acting out, that was nothing more than chance opportunity, and if you'd have seen the ugly bastards I went with you'd agree with me!

BUT - I still fantasize about giving other guys bj's. Does that have anything to do with latent gayness?
I don't think so, not for me at any rate. It's a fantasy of a sex act that doesn't extend any further than the bj. I don't include any part of meeting the guy, the ritual of accepting that sex will happen, the aftermath of the sex, or any other sex act in my fantasy. I start and finish with the bj.
But "Miss July" always gets my interest, even if I also admit that if bj's were so awful us guys would never get one. All those gay men and women who give bj's can't be wrong, can they ?

Dave

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

Top
#131579 - 08/29/04 09:08 PM Re: what or who am i?
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5775
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
This is an area that I'd like to do a chapter in the book I am working on (had a good day, spent 5 hours writing and editing today).

I think that for many men, doing a bj on someone is not about homosexuality. It is about controlling someone else's penis, making them hard, and by making them ejaculate, they have gone from being controlled to controlling someone else.

I'd like to hear more from survivors who understand that concept (or disagree with it). For a number of survivors I've worked with, I think the "acting out" by giving a bj is an attempt to gain control of the acts that were done to or by them. That means that the bj they were given as a child (beyond their control) or the one they were forced to do (also beyond their control) is now in THEIR hands/mouth.

A survivor turned perpetrator (with many young male victims) told me the other day about how he had to give his second perp bjs and as a teen, and afterwards he really enjoyed making younger boys orgasm (or if they were old enough) or ejaculate.

My sense that this is not about homosexuality or bisexuality. It is more about getting control over the act.

What do you think?

Ken


Top
#131580 - 08/29/04 10:06 PM Re: what or who am i?
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Ken I have pondered a lot about what you have written. And I am not sure if I am the right guy to respond to it. Giving a bj by force or getting screwed to me was a means to an end for me. It meant I was getting attention (love if you will) and it meant that I would get what I want if I resisted. Having the crap beat out of me. (Once again attention and in my twisted mind love). Now in acting out the promise was to give a bj or take it up the rear if I could torment them enough to beat the crap out of me.

Hustling was the same. The sex was pay back for being beaten badly. I never got excited with the sex only with the damage that was done to me. That could give me a spontaneous orgasm. I realize now it was totally screwed up. I always felt that that there were winners and losers in sex. And I was a loser. I hated the sex and if I did not get aroused by it they got mad at me. And of course that is what I wanted. So I guess I was a winner too.

I never thought I was in control giving a bJ. I did think some times it would be cool to just chomp down.

I guess I was one sick puppy. What do you think???

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

Top
#131583 - 08/29/04 10:38 PM Re: what or who am i?
Yves Offline
Member

Registered: 11/26/03
Posts: 93
Loc: Canada
Quote:
This is wrong. Garnering information for a book out of the pain of others. We don't even have a choice. You glean your information from the posts. If you asked your patients to talk to you, that would be one thing. But to get information from the sharing of others in similar pain, of which you CANNOT understand is just wrong. Please don't tell us that you only take your information from the questions you ask.
deleted by Ken- personal attack?! If it helps even ONE PERSON heal, it is WORTH IT!!

Quote:
Of course, this means I am off-center.

I'm not angry. Just tired of being used for the benefit of others.
Sigh. deleted by Ken for personal attack...

Yves, see my next post. Thanks for being understanding.
Ken

_________________________
You know you love someone when you want them to be happy even though their happiness means you're not part of it. ~Author Unknown~

Top
#131584 - 08/29/04 10:48 PM Re: what or who am i?
jimrh Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/22/03
Posts: 273
Loc: Roswell, GA
Yves,

as usual, you have an impressive, if not perfect way with words.

God Bless you my friend.


Ken, I'd love to participate in your information gathering for your book, especially if it may help someone in the future.

I'm send you a PM.


Jimmer ;\)


Top
#131585 - 08/29/04 10:59 PM Re: what or who am i?
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5775
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
Marc:
I am not looking to quote anyone without permission who provides their input here. I'm stating that the content of this book is for survivors ( and by the way, there is no money being made for most survivor-oriented books.) It is about helping survivors and their loved ones.

That said, I would not exploit anything or anyone. If an open discussion about bjs (in this instance) helps people clarify why they are doing what they are doing and recognize the self-defeating nature of the practice, or begin to understand the dynamics of what they are doing, it helps them establish some control over their lives.

Believe me, I am not looking to exploit anyone. I posted a couple of weeks ago that I was using quotes from survivors anonymously. If anyone sees a quote from him (even though it is posted "publically" here and without any identifying information in the book) and does not want it used, I will gladly remove it.

I intend to post sections of the book in this forum for this purpose so people can comment on it or ask, if I've used their words, to remove them.

I hope you know me well enough by now that I will never do anything to hurt a survivor.

Ken


Top
#131586 - 08/29/04 11:08 PM Re: what or who am i?
Yves Offline
Member

Registered: 11/26/03
Posts: 93
Loc: Canada
Quote:
I hope you know me well enough by now that I will never do anything to hurt a survivor.
Bravo, Ken. We applaud you and your good works. Let me assure you that the vast majority of us here know this of you without having to be told.

Hear, hear, an attaboy for Ken! \:D \:D

_________________________
You know you love someone when you want them to be happy even though their happiness means you're not part of it. ~Author Unknown~

Top
#131588 - 08/29/04 11:17 PM Re: what or who am i?
jimrh Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/22/03
Posts: 273
Loc: Roswell, GA
Sometimes the best thing to do is to understand when NOT to say anything.

Haven't I seen this or said this before?

Jimmer


Top
#131590 - 08/30/04 04:16 AM Re: what or who am i?
brian-z Offline
Member

Registered: 07/11/02
Posts: 770
Loc: Western USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Singer, LCSW:
(had a good day, spent 5 hours writing and editing today).

wow, if I can do 3 hours I feel like I'm on fire
It is about controlling someone else's penis, making them hard, and by making them ejaculate, they have gone from being controlled to controlling someone else.

I just love it when you talk clinical.

I'm going to be direct here so if you are prudish stop reading now. I'm really good at giving BJ’s and because of that I enjoy it. So the issue of control is there for me. Getting someone else off is exciting to me. Being complemented on a ‘job’ well done. And on the flip side (pun intended.) Sitting back and letting someone else do all the work is also exciting to me. But I have to tell you I just don’t think it has anything to do with SA (in my case).

I can’t say I disagree with your theray, in fact I think it makes a’lot of since, but I also think the who what and why (of acting out) is probably more complicated then just piloting someone else’s equipment.

And one final point, sometimes acting out is not acting out, it’s just get'en some.

Z


Top
#131591 - 08/30/04 07:27 AM Re: what or who am i?
Ivo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 267
Loc: Germany
From my point of view, acting out is first of all connected with huge sexual intensity during performance.
The pleasure itself is multiplied to devastating level by different factors.
It is also connected with losing control over myself. It is something demonic and inhuman in process in which all activities are pushed aside by pure sexual drive.
When you are child and you are involved in same sex it is like you are lunched in totally unreal, rocket high orbit (and I can not say for sure did I ever land back).
In other words my sexuality was "activated" before I was ready biologically and mentally.
So there is no simple, logical explanation why I am forced to do this, rather there is huge chaos that is for the moment perfect pleasure then perfect hell, mixed with guilt and tireless sex appetite.

It is about sex instincts that are taking control over my body and mind.
It doesn't matter how much I am trying to understand process. It is on sub consciousness level and I would never have total control over it...it is just always there, hungry and ready to hunt for itself.

Ivo


Top
#131592 - 08/30/04 09:40 AM Re: what or who am i?
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5775
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
Gentlemen:
Let me address a few things here. First of all, everyone is here for healing. I've said before that everyone is damaged by the SA and reacts in different ways. One survivor may react to a perceived threat (self-defined) by lashing out, while another may flee for safety.

Doesn't mean one is better than the other. Support and understanding, whether you personally like or dislike a fellow survivor, should be the order of the day. Attacks don't help anyone's growth and healing.

I believe we have the makings of another good thread here, if we can keep the discussion civil.

That said, I want to address Brian's comments (if they were too graphic for me to handle, then I'm in the wrong line of work.)

What I'm trying to differentiate here is the gay sexual attraction vs. a more heterosexually oriented person doing the same activity (bj). I can certainly understand the arousal feedback loop in a sexual act, whether gay or straight. (You do this, s/he gets more aroused, which gets you more aroused, getting him/her more aroused, etc.)

I think there is certainly a motive of "positive" power in giving a bj to a peer (or giving/getting oral sex in a hetero situation.) There is a good feeling being responsible for the pleasure of the partner.

The difference I'm trying to refine is the negative use of the same phenomenon in an abusive situation. That is, the abuser is determined to use the victim's arousal as a means of taking control and manipulating him into an orgasm.

To Marc and others who might question why I'm doing this:

I think if I can use my extensive experience of working with adult and juvenile offenders with the work I've been doing with male survivors, I can help (in this specific case) those who keep wondering if they are gay because they act out by doing bjs. I think there may be a similar dynamic between the guy I'm working with who used to bring his young male victims to orgasm or ejaculation. There also may be variants of this "payoff" in the self-defeating acting out behaviors that we hear around here from time to time.

This is only one area that I hope can be addressed for survivors. I certainly want to keep the discussion going and identify new topics regarding sexuality in this forum and other areas, such as intimacy issues, trust, and a ton of other subjects that are discussed here at MS. I will probably post sections of the book for input from survivors at some point. In any event, nobody is being quoted with any identification, not even pseudonyms.

Brian: Yesterday was particularly good. Too hot and humid to mow the lawn or go to the gym. However, it was just right to be sitting on the screened porch with laptop and typing away. Hope to have more productive days like that.

Ken


Top
#131593 - 08/30/04 09:52 AM Re: what or who am i?
Aden Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/04
Posts: 499



Top
#131594 - 08/30/04 10:28 AM Re: what or who am i?
brian-z Offline
Member

Registered: 07/11/02
Posts: 770
Loc: Western USA
Ken,

You’ve said something rather thought provoking. When you talked about self-defeating behaviors. Is it possible that sexualy “acting out” is merely a manifestation of something bigger?

I see a’lot of “self-defeating behaviors” in my self. I also see a’lot of latent self-defeating behaviors in the posts here. In fact it’s something I see a’lot here.

Or, is it possible that the low self-loathing feeling some survivors have after what is commonly called “acting out” is just the reaction to the fear a'lot of survivors have about sex?

Wow, this whole line of thought could go on and on so I better end here.

Z


Top
#131595 - 08/30/04 10:21 PM Re: what or who am i?
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5775
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
Quote:
is it possible that the low self-loathing feeling some survivors have after what is commonly called “acting out” is just the reaction to the fear a'lot of survivors have about sex?
Not sure what you mean by that, Brian. Like to hear more and expand on that topic.

In my experience, a lot of folks have "self loathing" after engaging in a self-defeating behavior (say engaging in anon sex in a bookstore). Is that what you are talking about or something different?

Ken


Top
#131596 - 08/30/04 10:45 PM Re: what or who am i?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Wow! What a cool site. I've been looking for something like this for a while. I can relate very well to sexual identity issues. My first encounter with a man was as a child of 8. He was my Aunt's husband. I considered him my uncle, until then. I remember how awful I felt after this incident, how dirty. It definitley changed how I have felt about myself ever since. For a long time after that my life was a pendulum between sex with men and with women. I 'realized' I was gay, and tried to live that way. I can say the sex was great, but looking at it now I believe it was more obsessive and excessive, and emotionally damaging than anything else. Eventually, as I grew into my twenties, finished my career, and began to consider the rest of my life I really began to question the idea of a lifetime relationship with a man. I saw gay friends I looked up to as role models break up, many others being promiscuous, and some die of aids. In general for me even though being gay had a lot of 'fun' wild moments, I felt very lonely and never found the love I was looking for. I thought about the future, and it did'nt look very bright. Also, I knew I really wanted a family. Ultimately, I chose. I met a wonderful woman. I was honest with her regarding the transition in my life which I had decided to make. We have been married now for 15 years, and have two wonderful children. I'm not saying all this to make anyone who chooses to be gay wrong. I'm not moralizing. It's only my story, and what I chose. I'm not saying that it's been easy either. I've had my difficult moments, my temptations. But I believe I've learned that sometimes what seems to be the hardest thing to do in life (in my case give up men, and be faithful to one woman)is a doable thing. I have also observed that regarding sex people can become so embroiled in it, and in figuring it out that it becomes an endless spiral of confusion. Ultimately, I believe we can change whatever we want in our lives, as long as we are reaching for something that we know to be a good thing, a good goal. For me it has been love and family with a woman, even though that is not where I began. I hope this helps some others out there who are considering their direction in life.

Much love,
Pachuco


Top
#131597 - 08/30/04 11:38 PM Re: what or who am i?
Sans Logos Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...
Pachuco

Correction: Sexuality is NOT a CHOICE one makes; it is an ORIENTATION! Please feel free to talk about your own confusion, but please don't imply that we are all confused; I mean, I may well be at times, but that's my call to make, not yours!

Please leave your labels at the door!

Now that I've gotten that out of the way, I am glad that you have found us, especially after looking "for something like this for a while". I bet you were looking for it even longer than that. Something tells me you you did not find us by choice, but rather by orientation. I am sure your world will change forever having found Male Survivor.

I am sorry that you have need of this forum, but you are here right on time. Enjoy your new world! many here share your experience, but they will also share their strength and hope.

Wishing you the best,


Ron ;\)

_________________________
  1. the past
  2. ReClaiming Now
  3. advocacy


Top
#131598 - 08/31/04 02:56 AM Re: what or who am i?
brian-z Offline
Member

Registered: 07/11/02
Posts: 770
Loc: Western USA
I don’t want to name names here but some people might know who I'm talking about when I give examples, if you see yourself please know I'm not trying to pick on you.

There have been quite a few posts about sex in my 2.5 years here. A 16yo convinced masturbation is “wrong”, people looking at chemical castration to end their sex drive. A person (who is a friend of mine) that got and gave a BJ to another gay friend and is convinced that it was abuse/acting out. There are more like this but I'm too tired to hunt through old posts right now. But I have sometimes felt this undercurrent on this site that some how survivors must not enjoys sex. And there is good sex and bad sex. Good sex happens once a year with your wife and it’s just doing your duty to continue the human race and this is ok as long as you don’t enjoy it. Everything else is ‘bad’ sex.

I’ve had countless conversations about “oh I'm such a terrible person because I had sex again, it’s the third time this decade, I'm just out of control” or the other one “I just had sex with my girl/boy friend am I acting out?” If you are horny and you go get laid you are NOT acting out.

Even I was sucked into this mind set once (very very briefly.) I and a friend from this site went to a gay bar in WEHO called the Gold Coast (shameless plug). I was having a really good time and I got a tap on the shoulder from my friend and he told me that a guy at the bar was checking me out, that moment was the birth of Brian the raging ego-maniac. But all at once I was hit with ‘no I not supposed to like this, this is wrong. Because I'm a survivor and because someone was checking me out now I need to go have my penis nod off by a rabid marmoset and punish myself for feeling desirable. I told my friend I wanted to go, when we got outside he asked what was wrong. I told him. He just rolled his eyes and said what else did I think was going to happened in a gay bar. Long story short we went back in side and if I told you how the night ended there are some that would just insist that I was just acting out and I could not have really enjoyed it (but I did, a’lot.)

But it took a friend to show me just how silly that attitude really is and just how entrenched in this site it was (it’s not that bad now, but it’s there.)

I’ve never had sex in a bookstore, but I have had plenty of wham bham thank you sir. And in my case it was simply a matter of being sexually aroused and wanting to get off. I don’t’ do it anymore because I'm sort of seeing someone.

Wow after all that typing now I finally get to the point.

I think that because of some prevailing attitudes in “Survivor Culture” many survivors can’t tell the difference between a normal healthy sex drive and acting out. And I don’t think SA is the reason for that. I think it’s the way SA is viewed by survivors them selves and survivor related professionals.

I'm sorry this was so long winded.

Z


Top
#131599 - 08/31/04 03:05 AM Re: what or who am i?
brian-z Offline
Member

Registered: 07/11/02
Posts: 770
Loc: Western USA
Guy,

I know I said I never say I'm sorry. But I am sorry that I (and others) Hijacked your thread like this.

Z.


Top
#131600 - 09/01/04 06:44 PM Re: what or who am i?
BT Offline


Registered: 06/25/03
Posts: 388
Loc: Chicago IL
In this whole discussion, what I did not notice, and forgive me if I have missed it...

In exploring, or whatever the right word is, gay vs. straight orientation, I think the most important concept to explore and get a grasp on for each individual is not so much the sexual fantasy, or act, but who you see yourself, or better put perhaps, which sex you see yourself most comfortable with and drawn to have a relationship with.

I am having trouble articulating the concept here, so pardon my rambling ineptness, perhaps, brian you can post and say what I am meaning to say... \:D Sometimes I need help and it is really hard to admit that... :rolleyes:

I think anyone can have "sex" with anyone or anything, given the right circumstances, though some inanimate objects should be avoided, trust me.

But the relationship is what matters, and yes I do agree that whether gay or straight you can have a committed relationship by choice either way, but I think to truly realize and even accept, that internal "biology" that stears us one way or another is what matters.

And I believe, and welcome those that don't to comment, that if we are honest with ourselves, and set aside all the BS we have collected over the years, that we all have the answer. Sometimes it takes a lot of digging through s$%t to find, but it in IMO is there in each of us.

_________________________
"Everyone is entitled to their opinions and it is not my job to change their mind." Dali Lama

Top
#131601 - 09/04/04 02:38 PM Re: what or who am i?
guy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/30/04
Posts: 236
Loc: nc
wow! on the replys and hi-jacking.

no worry, i still read and learn, try to heal.

people get very deep, some get relief, i don't know.

i am here, alive, and am tired of confusion and hurt. i also am happy some parts of my days. i just don't know.

guy


Top
#131602 - 09/07/04 08:43 PM Re: what or who am i?
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Ken
Quote:
I think the "acting out" by giving a bj is an attempt to gain control of the acts that were done to or by them. That means that the bj they were given as a child (beyond their control) or the one they were forced to do (also beyond their control) is now in THEIR hands/mouth.
I've always maintained that my acting-out, giving bj's, was a power play. I wanted to regain MY power.

I must have thought ( un-conciously, this was before therapy etc ) that doing the things I did as a boy once again as an adult, but on MY terms, would somehow make everything right.

Through fantasy and long periods of planning I would get myself totally 'wired' on adreniline, then go looking for a man in the usual places.

My fantasy didn't include any of the meeting with the man, the way we accepted that sex would take place or any of the things other than me giving the bj. And I didn't want anything at all in return.
So, when that fantasy was broken by the other guy saying something, especially asking or telling me to do something, or him touching me, the 'moment' was gone. With my fantasy shattered, I had no reason to carry on, and seldom did.
I have actually fought with guys to get away once the fantasy went.
Only once did the fantasy remain more or less intact, and that was a very strange experience.
I actually focused on what I was doing, and I didn't like it, because it didn't live up to my fantasy.

The truth is that my fantasies were probably unatainable, they were too tight and controlling.
Which is never going to happen, not even role play with a willing partner could create the right conditions because I'd have to share the fantasy beforehand and he's have to agree to submit!
That's pointless.

Brian.

Quote:
I think that because of some prevailing attitudes in “Survivor Culture” many survivors can’t tell the difference between a normal healthy sex drive and acting out. And I don’t think SA is the reason for that. I think it’s the way SA is viewed by survivors them selves and survivor related professionals.
I agree totally, we are confused as to what is 'normal' - but isn't everyone to a degree?
Society accepts that some things are taboo, and that is right.
But in the privacy of our homes, who decides what is right or wrong?
Millions of people do things that others find odd, or even unacceptable, but if nobody's being forced, manipulated or tricked into it, and both ( all? ) the people involved willingly enjoy it, who cares?
I saw on TV recently a guy having his dick hit with a welders wire brush - hard! The guy loved it, and the woman claimed their sex life was "something else!"
Not for me, my wire brush stays in the workshop!
But the attitude of these people is what we seem to have lost, we seem to be unable to break the link between sex and being used.
Even though the guy getting his whang whacked with the brush was submitting, it was on his terms - very much like my fruitless search for the 'perfect bj - only he doesn't seem to have the excess baggage.

Anyone seen my SnapOn catalogue ?

Dave ;\)

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

Top
#131603 - 09/07/04 10:41 PM Re: what or who am i?
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5775
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
Dave:
You wrote:
Quote:
The truth is that my fantasies were probably unatainable, they were too tight and controlling.
Which is never going to happen, not even role play with a willing partner could create the right conditions because I'd have to share the fantasy beforehand and he's have to agree to submit!
I wonder what the difference is between the "loop" one gets with a consensual partner (where you are making the other person get hotter and hotter, and that makes you hotter and hotter) and this process of taking control of the other persons arousal and orgasm.

I'm not sure if I'm being clear here, but I think there is a different process going on between the acting out kind of sexual gratification one gets from a dysfunctional "pleasuring" of another and a consensual pleasuring.

Ken


Top
#131604 - 09/15/04 08:30 PM Re: what or who am i?
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Yes, it is a different process.
On a good day I can do the mutual thing with someone I love -my wife - and I can get totally wrapped up in this loop you describe.
That's GOOD sex.

But acting out, for me certainly, never produced one sexually pleasurable moment, on that scale at least.
Now maybe I was 'unlucky', and possibly if I had gained pleasure I'd still be out there giving bj's?
Perhaps I just expected too much, some level of gratification that just isn't possible?
I don't deny that any sex act can give great pleasure, bj's included.
But my fantasies probably elevated the bj to a mythical status in my mind that I was never going to find.

Also, the fact that my fantasies were so focused on the bj anything that fell outside that was a distraction, so the meeting and agreement that 'sex' was going to happen wasn't considered. And when the guy asked, suggested or told me to do something it was outside the>
_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

Top
#131605 - 09/15/04 10:20 PM Re: what or who am i?
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5775
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
Dave wrote:
Quote:
I believe that my acting out was more about regaining control and power over the act that I was apparently so good at as a boy. I've given hundreds of bj's under coerced conditions, I just wanted to change that power structure - I think.
I wonder if you were that good as a boy giving bjs or the abusers really got off because they coerced you?

One would think that your ability would get better in your adulthood from the less experienced boy who was likely motivated more by fear than desire (as an adult acting out).

If this is true, your motivation today is not to re-create the experience from a pleasurable perspective, but to possibly take charge of the process that was forced on you when you were a boy, as you speculated.

Changing the>

Top
#131606 - 09/16/04 07:56 PM Re: what or who am i?
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Ken

Quote:
I wonder if you were that good as a boy giving bjs or the abusers really got off because they coerced you?
Good question, but I'll never know the answer.
The difference from their point of view is a subtle, but important one.

Sex is good, and back in the 60's in the closed environment we were in sex should have been unknown to us. It was a single sex boarding deep in the country, and the "swinging 60's" hadn't reached us, neither had girls.
So sexual urges had to go somewhere, and there was always an element of mutual sexual experimentation going on. But it was minor, one-off stuff that was actually more open than most people would expect.

The abusers however knew things that weren't exactly common knowledge to the majority of kids in those days, there was no internet porn, cable TV, near porn "newspapers" or even easily available soft porn. A picture of a topless model was a rare thing.
My two main abusers knew many things, and would arrive back at school at the start of term with hard core porn.
Where did they get this, and the sexual knowledge they had? My guess is they were being abused at home.

So were they just enjoying my much praised talents, or where they they passing on their feelings of "being used" to me ( and others ) and therefore releasing their own feelings?

My guess would be that they were doing both these things.
Sex was a huge part of their lives, they would have sex with each other, then later on with me and perhaps someone else after that. I also know they are both still very active in what we might describe "the scene". Both have been in trouble with the police for various sexual offences as adults.

Quote:
One would think that your ability would get better in your adulthood from the less experienced boy who was likely motivated more by fear than desire (as an adult acting out).
I have NO doubt that I was initially motivated by fear and coercion, but my memory "tells" me that "desire" became the driver, I got to liking it.
But for just over 4 years I probably gave at least one bj a day for every day we were at school - 7 days a week. It was a rare day that I missed out.
And with the way I was groomed I asked them.
That's a hell of a lot of imprinting to shift.

Here's an odd thing though. I was also fucked on the same basis. But that doesn't figure in my fantasies, and never in my acting out.
Perhaps that's because I'm sure that within this loose group of maybe 8 or 10 boys, under the control of the 2 main abusers, I think I was the only one who gave bj's or "asked" for threesomes.
I attained something I suppose? I can't exactly place what it was, perhaps it was the illusion of being special, friendship even talented?
The other boys would fuck, but I would do something "special".

Something I did as an adult, that I have virtually stopped since I began my therapy was, when I saw someone I knew or stopped to talk to someone, to use ( in my head ) the phrase - "I know things you dont know, I do things you don't do" as a part of the winding up process I used before acting out, and even earlier than that; when I was just dissacociating.
The sex, as I though of it through my early adult years, marked me out as different - in my own eyes.
And is "different" that far removed from "special"?
I don't think so.

Having that "talent" abandoned so suddenly was probably a shock to my system.
But I had new experiences to make me feel special, so I didn't crave the reason for feeling 'special' - although I did sometimes use it in fantasy.
But as middle age approached, and arrived, I guess my mid-life crisis kicked in and I recognised that I was just as average as the next guy and although there's nothing wrong with that, we all like to feel that ther is actually something about us that makes us different - special even.

And I knew exactly the thing that made me special!

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

Top
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >


Moderator:  ModTeam, peroperic2009 

I agree that my access and use of the MaleSurvivor discussion forums and chat room is subject to the terms of this Agreement. AND the sole discretion of MaleSurvivor.
I agree that my use of MaleSurvivor resources are AT-WILL, and that my posting privileges may be terminated at any time, and for any reason by MaleSurvivor.