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#131596 - 08/30/04 10:45 PM Re: what or who am i?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Wow! What a cool site. I've been looking for something like this for a while. I can relate very well to sexual identity issues. My first encounter with a man was as a child of 8. He was my Aunt's husband. I considered him my uncle, until then. I remember how awful I felt after this incident, how dirty. It definitley changed how I have felt about myself ever since. For a long time after that my life was a pendulum between sex with men and with women. I 'realized' I was gay, and tried to live that way. I can say the sex was great, but looking at it now I believe it was more obsessive and excessive, and emotionally damaging than anything else. Eventually, as I grew into my twenties, finished my career, and began to consider the rest of my life I really began to question the idea of a lifetime relationship with a man. I saw gay friends I looked up to as role models break up, many others being promiscuous, and some die of aids. In general for me even though being gay had a lot of 'fun' wild moments, I felt very lonely and never found the love I was looking for. I thought about the future, and it did'nt look very bright. Also, I knew I really wanted a family. Ultimately, I chose. I met a wonderful woman. I was honest with her regarding the transition in my life which I had decided to make. We have been married now for 15 years, and have two wonderful children. I'm not saying all this to make anyone who chooses to be gay wrong. I'm not moralizing. It's only my story, and what I chose. I'm not saying that it's been easy either. I've had my difficult moments, my temptations. But I believe I've learned that sometimes what seems to be the hardest thing to do in life (in my case give up men, and be faithful to one woman)is a doable thing. I have also observed that regarding sex people can become so embroiled in it, and in figuring it out that it becomes an endless spiral of confusion. Ultimately, I believe we can change whatever we want in our lives, as long as we are reaching for something that we know to be a good thing, a good goal. For me it has been love and family with a woman, even though that is not where I began. I hope this helps some others out there who are considering their direction in life.

Much love,
Pachuco


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#131597 - 08/30/04 11:38 PM Re: what or who am i?
Sans Logos Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...
Pachuco

Correction: Sexuality is NOT a CHOICE one makes; it is an ORIENTATION! Please feel free to talk about your own confusion, but please don't imply that we are all confused; I mean, I may well be at times, but that's my call to make, not yours!

Please leave your labels at the door!

Now that I've gotten that out of the way, I am glad that you have found us, especially after looking "for something like this for a while". I bet you were looking for it even longer than that. Something tells me you you did not find us by choice, but rather by orientation. I am sure your world will change forever having found Male Survivor.

I am sorry that you have need of this forum, but you are here right on time. Enjoy your new world! many here share your experience, but they will also share their strength and hope.

Wishing you the best,


Ron ;\)

_________________________
  1. the past
  2. ReClaiming Now
  3. advocacy


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#131598 - 08/31/04 02:56 AM Re: what or who am i?
brian-z Offline
Member

Registered: 07/11/02
Posts: 770
Loc: Western USA
I donít want to name names here but some people might know who I'm talking about when I give examples, if you see yourself please know I'm not trying to pick on you.

There have been quite a few posts about sex in my 2.5 years here. A 16yo convinced masturbation is ďwrongĒ, people looking at chemical castration to end their sex drive. A person (who is a friend of mine) that got and gave a BJ to another gay friend and is convinced that it was abuse/acting out. There are more like this but I'm too tired to hunt through old posts right now. But I have sometimes felt this undercurrent on this site that some how survivors must not enjoys sex. And there is good sex and bad sex. Good sex happens once a year with your wife and itís just doing your duty to continue the human race and this is ok as long as you donít enjoy it. Everything else is Ďbadí sex.

Iíve had countless conversations about ďoh I'm such a terrible person because I had sex again, itís the third time this decade, I'm just out of controlĒ or the other one ďI just had sex with my girl/boy friend am I acting out?Ē If you are horny and you go get laid you are NOT acting out.

Even I was sucked into this mind set once (very very briefly.) I and a friend from this site went to a gay bar in WEHO called the Gold Coast (shameless plug). I was having a really good time and I got a tap on the shoulder from my friend and he told me that a guy at the bar was checking me out, that moment was the birth of Brian the raging ego-maniac. But all at once I was hit with Ďno I not supposed to like this, this is wrong. Because I'm a survivor and because someone was checking me out now I need to go have my penis nod off by a rabid marmoset and punish myself for feeling desirable. I told my friend I wanted to go, when we got outside he asked what was wrong. I told him. He just rolled his eyes and said what else did I think was going to happened in a gay bar. Long story short we went back in side and if I told you how the night ended there are some that would just insist that I was just acting out and I could not have really enjoyed it (but I did, aílot.)

But it took a friend to show me just how silly that attitude really is and just how entrenched in this site it was (itís not that bad now, but itís there.)

Iíve never had sex in a bookstore, but I have had plenty of wham bham thank you sir. And in my case it was simply a matter of being sexually aroused and wanting to get off. I donítí do it anymore because I'm sort of seeing someone.

Wow after all that typing now I finally get to the point.

I think that because of some prevailing attitudes in ďSurvivor CultureĒ many survivors canít tell the difference between a normal healthy sex drive and acting out. And I donít think SA is the reason for that. I think itís the way SA is viewed by survivors them selves and survivor related professionals.

I'm sorry this was so long winded.

Z


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#131599 - 08/31/04 03:05 AM Re: what or who am i?
brian-z Offline
Member

Registered: 07/11/02
Posts: 770
Loc: Western USA
Guy,

I know I said I never say I'm sorry. But I am sorry that I (and others) Hijacked your thread like this.

Z.


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#131600 - 09/01/04 06:44 PM Re: what or who am i?
BT Offline


Registered: 06/25/03
Posts: 388
Loc: Chicago IL
In this whole discussion, what I did not notice, and forgive me if I have missed it...

In exploring, or whatever the right word is, gay vs. straight orientation, I think the most important concept to explore and get a grasp on for each individual is not so much the sexual fantasy, or act, but who you see yourself, or better put perhaps, which sex you see yourself most comfortable with and drawn to have a relationship with.

I am having trouble articulating the concept here, so pardon my rambling ineptness, perhaps, brian you can post and say what I am meaning to say... \:D Sometimes I need help and it is really hard to admit that... :rolleyes:

I think anyone can have "sex" with anyone or anything, given the right circumstances, though some inanimate objects should be avoided, trust me.

But the relationship is what matters, and yes I do agree that whether gay or straight you can have a committed relationship by choice either way, but I think to truly realize and even accept, that internal "biology" that stears us one way or another is what matters.

And I believe, and welcome those that don't to comment, that if we are honest with ourselves, and set aside all the BS we have collected over the years, that we all have the answer. Sometimes it takes a lot of digging through s$%t to find, but it in IMO is there in each of us.

_________________________
"Everyone is entitled to their opinions and it is not my job to change their mind." Dali Lama

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#131601 - 09/04/04 02:38 PM Re: what or who am i?
guy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/30/04
Posts: 236
Loc: nc
wow! on the replys and hi-jacking.

no worry, i still read and learn, try to heal.

people get very deep, some get relief, i don't know.

i am here, alive, and am tired of confusion and hurt. i also am happy some parts of my days. i just don't know.

guy


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#131602 - 09/07/04 08:43 PM Re: what or who am i?
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Ken
Quote:
I think the "acting out" by giving a bj is an attempt to gain control of the acts that were done to or by them. That means that the bj they were given as a child (beyond their control) or the one they were forced to do (also beyond their control) is now in THEIR hands/mouth.
I've always maintained that my acting-out, giving bj's, was a power play. I wanted to regain MY power.

I must have thought ( un-conciously, this was before therapy etc ) that doing the things I did as a boy once again as an adult, but on MY terms, would somehow make everything right.

Through fantasy and long periods of planning I would get myself totally 'wired' on adreniline, then go looking for a man in the usual places.

My fantasy didn't include any of the meeting with the man, the way we accepted that sex would take place or any of the things other than me giving the bj. And I didn't want anything at all in return.
So, when that fantasy was broken by the other guy saying something, especially asking or telling me to do something, or him touching me, the 'moment' was gone. With my fantasy shattered, I had no reason to carry on, and seldom did.
I have actually fought with guys to get away once the fantasy went.
Only once did the fantasy remain more or less intact, and that was a very strange experience.
I actually focused on what I was doing, and I didn't like it, because it didn't live up to my fantasy.

The truth is that my fantasies were probably unatainable, they were too tight and controlling.
Which is never going to happen, not even role play with a willing partner could create the right conditions because I'd have to share the fantasy beforehand and he's have to agree to submit!
That's pointless.

Brian.

Quote:
I think that because of some prevailing attitudes in ďSurvivor CultureĒ many survivors canít tell the difference between a normal healthy sex drive and acting out. And I donít think SA is the reason for that. I think itís the way SA is viewed by survivors them selves and survivor related professionals.
I agree totally, we are confused as to what is 'normal' - but isn't everyone to a degree?
Society accepts that some things are taboo, and that is right.
But in the privacy of our homes, who decides what is right or wrong?
Millions of people do things that others find odd, or even unacceptable, but if nobody's being forced, manipulated or tricked into it, and both ( all? ) the people involved willingly enjoy it, who cares?
I saw on TV recently a guy having his dick hit with a welders wire brush - hard! The guy loved it, and the woman claimed their sex life was "something else!"
Not for me, my wire brush stays in the workshop!
But the attitude of these people is what we seem to have lost, we seem to be unable to break the link between sex and being used.
Even though the guy getting his whang whacked with the brush was submitting, it was on his terms - very much like my fruitless search for the 'perfect bj - only he doesn't seem to have the excess baggage.

Anyone seen my SnapOn catalogue ?

Dave ;\)

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#131603 - 09/07/04 10:41 PM Re: what or who am i?
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5780
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
Dave:
You wrote:
Quote:
The truth is that my fantasies were probably unatainable, they were too tight and controlling.
Which is never going to happen, not even role play with a willing partner could create the right conditions because I'd have to share the fantasy beforehand and he's have to agree to submit!
I wonder what the difference is between the "loop" one gets with a consensual partner (where you are making the other person get hotter and hotter, and that makes you hotter and hotter) and this process of taking control of the other persons arousal and orgasm.

I'm not sure if I'm being clear here, but I think there is a different process going on between the acting out kind of sexual gratification one gets from a dysfunctional "pleasuring" of another and a consensual pleasuring.

Ken


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#131604 - 09/15/04 08:30 PM Re: what or who am i?
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Yes, it is a different process.
On a good day I can do the mutual thing with someone I love -my wife - and I can get totally wrapped up in this loop you describe.
That's GOOD sex.

But acting out, for me certainly, never produced one sexually pleasurable moment, on that scale at least.
Now maybe I was 'unlucky', and possibly if I had gained pleasure I'd still be out there giving bj's?
Perhaps I just expected too much, some level of gratification that just isn't possible?
I don't deny that any sex act can give great pleasure, bj's included.
But my fantasies probably elevated the bj to a mythical status in my mind that I was never going to find.

Also, the fact that my fantasies were so focused on the bj anything that fell outside that was a distraction, so the meeting and agreement that 'sex' was going to happen wasn't considered. And when the guy asked, suggested or told me to do something it was outside the>
_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#131605 - 09/15/04 10:20 PM Re: what or who am i?
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5780
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
Dave wrote:
Quote:
I believe that my acting out was more about regaining control and power over the act that I was apparently so good at as a boy. I've given hundreds of bj's under coerced conditions, I just wanted to change that power structure - I think.
I wonder if you were that good as a boy giving bjs or the abusers really got off because they coerced you?

One would think that your ability would get better in your adulthood from the less experienced boy who was likely motivated more by fear than desire (as an adult acting out).

If this is true, your motivation today is not to re-create the experience from a pleasurable perspective, but to possibly take charge of the process that was forced on you when you were a boy, as you speculated.

Changing the>

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