Hey Dave,
It was very much part of an addiction to me too. I can’t explain this in a way that makes sense, but I’ll try anyway. Whenever I stayed faithful to my wife or girlfriend too long, I’d find myself drawn to those parks where gay guys hook up. It was a very real argument that went on in my head with “my addict.” He was saying if you don’t do someting, I will. I'll force you to go “there.” He always had the upper hand. It was like a drumbeat that would go on loud and long enough until I’d give in and go looking for a woman to cheat with. I’d eventually decide illicit sex was inevitable, so I’d do something I at least thought I could enjoy.

I know it may sound like I’m justifying my behavior. I’m not. Just stating facts. I once tried explaining this to a VERY angry girlfriend who caught me cheating on her. She said I just liked playing around. But the truth is I would have gladly traded every woman I ever fucked if I never had to face that particular wrestling match in my head. Still would. But then we don’t get to make those trades, do we.

Quote:

Never really liked it but it put me in my place.

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Wow! Are we back to self esteem and control issues. It would make sense, in a way.

Huge self esteem issues on which I am working. But that I guess is an issue for another forum.

Dave, and others,

Yes, that's exactly what I think that we're talking about, at least for me. What I have thought about, fantasized, has been those things that have “kept me in my place,” deep in the shit pile. From what my therapy has taught me is that I kept myself from accomplishing anything “worthwhile.” In other words, and I probably don’t have to explain anymore than I have, but when I thought of doing anything that would have gotten me what I wanted, I would drift into those thoughts and fantasies and stay stuck in the pile.
I have never been able to work successfully for anyone else, and my overall work history is sketchy, at best.
Anyone else?

David

I am certainly enjoying your discussion guys! I have struggled a long time in this identity area. I have extensive knowledge about Raparative Therapy (becoming straight) and therapy to accept gay/bi gender orientation. I've heard therapists say - "you are born this way and that". From my experience with myself and lots of strugglers in this area is: yes some are born this way + yes, some became this way (usually by early trauma). This is debatable for sure BUT was not the bottom line in my struggle and exploration

For me, the bottom line was contingent on: (1) being totally honest with myself; (2) accepting everything I honestly told myself without minimizing, justifying, rationalizing and all that other distortion stuff; (3) realizing after I accepted my honest sexual orientation, I could choose and decide where I would go from there and how I could express honestly who/what I am. Before there was acceptance, I was stuck; I was always apologizing for my thoughts & feelings (mostly to myself); I was afraid of admitting things [finally I realized I could only move, choose or decide anything if I could accept where I was].

The hardest issue to work through for me was being a bisexual, married male and fully living my life, not in secret, but openly without apology - no shame, guilt, fear.

Sorry for being so long!!

Howard

Dave

I think we build the shit pile, because we can't find a place to put the things into normal perspective, we put them on the shit pile, and think? I will work on that one, or that one, we put them all there, and as they mount up, we lose control of how much shit, we have accumulated.

We go in and address some of it, but hey, some of it you can't address, so it gets left there, and the festering mess gets left, eating away, and knawing at why you can,t address it, I say now, when I meet some problem, that I can't workout from the past, I try to just erase it from the pile.

It is hard for a kid to work out what is happening in life, without having to put the shit pile in order within his mind, normally a kid will live with a normal mind that is not affected by the Trauma of abuse, they learn to understand the way they are meant to be, I remember when I was a kid trying so hard to pick up the pieces of what I should be, by watching the other kids, I watched them like a hawk, trying so hard to learn what made them so care free.

I always wondered what it was like to be a normal kid!

The problem with the above, was that they were watching me, and trying to learn off me, that was totally confusing, but if I remember, I was the one who always could sort out the bullies, and I had sort of reasoning, that they couldn't figure.

Suppose another thing, I was always tops at sports, I could outrun everyone in the school, I was good at football, I honed my mind to be the best, the running I suppose, was to get away from anyone who wanted to do these things again, the football took my mind off the a***e.

I think in all of this Dave, we have had so much of a battering mentally as kids, that we always appeared to be the strongest in the group, we paid for it with our childhoods' we never let anyone see what was the driving force behind it, because we didn't dare, for fear of what we could face.

Because we have to be so strong in childhood, we miss so much of the pleasure of real play, play without destructive thought, I remember thinking.

Why do they all want to know me? Don't you see what's going on inside? But then again it is so strong an illusion to them, that you are the kid they want to know, you can never show them the crying child within.

They just see you as??? I will never know.

BTW my teachers said, you are the one to get there out of all the school, but faced with the pile of shit, is it any wonder we get anywhere? I hope you can get on top of it, I am clearing the mess all the time, it can be done.

Think, that's where confusion starts

take care

ste

This is an excellent point. I tried to work out the orientation issues for years. Not long ago I decided to sort of let it go, just accept it. This made me feel better, but I had the little question in the back of my head "am I just giving up figuring it out? am I accepting something that really is not, for me, appropriately accepted”?

But still, I felt good and at peace about it. Until suddenly my therapist announced that he believes I am not organically attracted to men--that it basically is related the the abuse, etc. (which is what I had battled with for years). Basically, he has ripped of my comfortable label and self-acceptance.

I really don't know what to think now.

I think the key there Daniel is that you said your T "believes". They can be wrong too you know. They are there for guidence, not to give you all the answers. That was his input, you must now apply that to what YOU know of your life and decide if it is valid or not.

Which of course is the real problem. I can't seem to do that. Not for any length of time anyway. I can become very convinced and comfortable with a conclusion for say, 2 hours. Maybe a day if I'm lucky. Later I may be convinced of just the opposite. And mostly it's just confusion in between. Well, I know there is no answer but to keep trying and hopefully time will take care of it.

Thanks for listening.