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#13019 - 04/30/03 03:18 PM My Torment
jimrh Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/22/03
Posts: 273
Loc: Roswell, GA
I guess I'm going to do it, post this here regardless of the consequences. At the very least maybe writing this will in some freakish way be therapeutic.

Dealing with my SA (and I have to throw in my PA - physical abuse which is a bigger issue) through therapy and discussions with a few of you and with my wife, I have come to some conclusions, although still have some questions that to me seem epic in proporation.

For me there are three levels of despair that result from my view of self (what and who am I EXACTLY):

1. Family - from my first family, as many of you also had, I experienced NO childhood. To cope with a father who beat me constantly (but not my siblings) as well as his mental anguish, I learned to do whatever I could to gain the acceptance from whoever I could. This resulted in falling into the arms of an older cousin who did appreciate me for 6 years. For that I am grateful. Never having any view of any self worth, I thought that if I married and had a family of my own that this would all go away and that I would not have any attraction for men. Didn't work that easily. Now that I have that family (loving one at that), I know that if I accept my sexuality, I will THROW AWAY this family as well as my first family, albeit loose ties anyway. Result : Complete loss of any and all family ties.

2. Spiritual. We've all thought at least about God in some fashion. Whatever your beliefs, mine are driven by my conversion to Catholocism. If I accept the doctrines of the church, which I do, then homosexuality is a sin. If I act on the desire for men, then I am sinning, plain and simple. The only way to deal with this is to live chastly. How do you do that? I don't know but I'm checking it out. Result: Complete loss of any ties to God. Perhaps worse after I'm gone.

3. Self. What is self. My view of myself is admittedly not positive at all. Realizing where it came from, I don't know what to do about it to improve. I will say that someone telling me to have HOPE or think POSITIVE or BELIEVE that you are special, not worthless and not an abomination or despicable are simply empty words. Look at it this way: If you grow up being told both directly and indirectly that you are not desireable, that you are unwanted/hated/detested by your own father, then you believe that you are because you have external validation as such by others. You didn't just hit upon the idea suddenly and ran with it. Likewise, if you want to believe that you are a worthy person, then you must have external validation to support it. Without any external validation of positive self, then all the positive feel-good therapeutic activities that you engage in are nothing more than empty words. Nice words, indeed, but meaningless.

Result of self acceptance that I'm Gay: validation within myself that I'm both worthless to my family and to God. What else is there then?

To be fair to all the members on this discussion board, I understand that my dilemma pales in comparison to most, if not all.

So my only logical option here (other than the ultimate option) is to reject the part of me that I cannot accept because the personal price to pay is epic.

We all talk vaguely about the word HOPE. If there is hope for me, then I must deny me, I must learn to punish me when I think improper thoughts. I must accept my wife and kids and totally give myself to them, denying any and all desire for myself; I therefore no longer exist as an individual, I'm an extension of them.

I'm almost there.


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#13021 - 04/30/03 05:34 PM Re: My Torment
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Quote:
in terms of self, i have no purpose. i was born to be used.
Jake:

I empathize, painfully so...

Quote:

My own abuse, a sense of being hated, unwanted, & made an object of vengeance, began with me in the womb, while still attached to my unwed mothers' umbilical cord, thru which I could feel the malice
against all men that my mother held & would take out on my her "bastard" firstborn son.

Right from the start I learned some bad stuff & picked up some bad vibes thru my body that got trapped there & became the foundation for my emotional & physical life into adulthood. I'm still dealing with it.
http://www.malesurvivor.org/cgi-local/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001839

Quote:
i have no real answers or suggestions for filling that void. like you, i'm just here, i just exist, with no purpose, and no real validation.
Jake, right now I'm feeling much that way myself. Yet I believe each of us is our own validation by our existence, irregardless of anyone else.

It does help to have the help of others.

But not the damned abuse!

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#13022 - 04/30/03 05:49 PM Re: My Torment
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Jim and Jake
Quote:
still feel this way, and still thin in these terms, despite leaving the situation, despite having a place of supportive people around me. you’re right, others saying ‘have hope’ and ‘believe’ are empty words because that isn’t validation. and validation has to be more than superficial.

however, a great part of that lies within. what i might say means nothing. if it came from a loved one, it might have a greater meaning.

yet the point you make is solid. all the kind words in the world won’t change the feeling of worthlessness, and hurt is harder to change than happiness. those changes must come from within. my neighbor is one of the kindest people i know, and i don’t doubt his intentions. his words, however, don’t change my internal thoughts, though i know he means it when he says i’m a worthy person.

the emptiness, then, might not always come from the words themselves, but be projected into them from within oneself.

to give selflessly is a fine quality, but i can tell you from experience, the emptiness will remain. i would die for my cousins and brothers. i care for them, i love them, more than anything else. but doing that does not make me love myself, nor does it complete me. you can fake it, as you’re suggesting, or accept the emptiness, as i do, but it is still there.

i have no real answers or suggestions for filling that void. like you, i’m just here, i just exist, with no purpose, and no real validation.

jake
Ok lets cut to the chase and be a bit more direct here. Wont use
Quote:
others saying ‘have hope’ and ‘believe’ are empty words because that isn’t validation. and validation has to be more than superficial.
You both suffered horrible abuse and were told that you were worthless. And you believed it cause that is what they wanted you to believe.
Now you cannot change the fact of your abuse but you and only you can change the feelings inside.
You are right there are no magic answers and nobody will tell you what to do or how to do it. We can only, trhough our posts and in answers to posts relate to others what we tried and what worked and what did not.

I am sorry if this sound harsh but IT IS YOUR CHOICE TO CONTINUE TO BELIEVE WHAT YOUR PERPS TOLD YOU. AND IT IS ALSO YOUR CHOICE TO SAY THAT IS EFFEN BULLSHIT. REALLY QUITE SIMPLE

You exist and dont live, you think you might be gay, you will have to give up your family. TELL ME WHY. LIFE IS ALL ABOUT CHOICES AND ADAPTING TO DIFFERENT SITUATIONS. IF YOU CANNOT ADAPT AND MAKE CHOICES YOU HAVE NO ONE TO BLAME BUT YOURSELF.
Now you did not have a choice about the sa and none of us here did. We coped as best we could and that further piled crap on our selfworth.

I said somewhere that I dont know what my orientation is. My wife came into my life at a crucial time and I am satisfied with that. THAT IS MY CHOICE. It still does not answer the question. Had it been a Man? I dont know? BUT I WILL TELL YOU THIS I DONT DWELL ON IT. AND THAT IS MY CHOICE AND MINE ALONE. AND IT IS MY CHOICE TO SPEND THE REST OF MY LIFE WITH HER AND HOPEFULLY HAVE GRANDCHILDREN TO SPOIL. IT IS ALL ABOUT CHOICES.

Now you say religion dictates that being gay is a sin. IT IS MY CHOICE TO BELIEVE THAT THAT IS A CROCK OF SHIT. I choose to believe that we were created to share life with someone. MY CHOICE.

I cannot tell you what choices to make. I can only tell you the choices I have made and how it has helped my change my view o myself.
IT IS MY CHOICE TO SAY THAT I AM NOT WORTHLESS. AND IT IS MY CHOICE TO SAY THAT MY PERPS, THE COUNSELLOR AT THE YMCA, AND MY CUSTOMERS WERE ALL FULL OF SHIT. IT IS MY CHOICE TO SEEK PERSONAL CONFIRMATION THAT I HAVE WORTH. I SEE IT IN MY WIFES EYES AND HER GENTLE TOUCH. I SEE IT IN A BEAUTIFUL AND STRONG WILLED DAUGHTER WHO IS NOW A YOUNG WOMAN. I SEE IT AT WORK AND I SEE IT IN THE CAMERADERIE HERE.
BROTHERS IT IS ALL ABOUT CHOICES AND THAT IS IT.

MULDOON HERE TALKED ABOUT MAKING A PRESENTATIO TO THE MINNESOTA STATE LEGISLATURE. I TOLD HIM THAT I THOUGHT IT WAS GREAT BUT THE OUTCOME WOULD BE THE SAME OLD SHIT. THEN I APOLOGIZED FOR MY RANT.
HE WROTE BACK THAT IT IS OK TO RANT AND STAY ON THE SIDELINES WHERE OTHERS MAKE CHOICES TO CHANGE THINGS.

That galvanized me and I am now in the process of making a presentatio to my provincial government. I CHOOSE TO DO THIS SO THAT OTHERS MIGHT FIND IT EASIER TO GET HELP THAN I DID. ONCE AGAIN MY CHOICE.

I think that I have made a difference in little Alan's life. He has suffered so much and almost gave up. AGAIN IT WAS MY CHOICE. NOBODY TOLD ME WHAT TO DO. And getting back to god again. I believe he had a hand in saving little Al. MY CHOICE TO BELIEVE THIS

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

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#13023 - 04/30/03 05:55 PM Re: My Torment
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Forgot to add one thing.

I have been guilty of wallowing in self pity and seeing everything as black and that there is no hope and that I deserve every god damned bad things that have happened to me. I think we all have.
BUT IT IS MY CHOICE NOT TO DO THIS ANYMORE AND IF I SEE IT STARTING TO HAPPEN I SLAP IT DOWN. I TRY TO LIVE EACH DAY TO THE BEST OF MY ABILITY. I AM NOT AN EXTENSION OF MY FAMILY BUT AN INTEGRAL PART. MY CHOICE.

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

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#13024 - 04/30/03 07:34 PM Re: My Torment
jimrh Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/22/03
Posts: 273
Loc: Roswell, GA
Mike,

I just want to thank you for completely invalidating everything I said.


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#13025 - 04/30/03 08:20 PM Re: My Torment
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Jim
I totally agree with Mike, it's OUR CHOICE.

Our abusers lied to us when they put us down and made us feel worthless, and in the face of nothing disproving those lies then we carry on believing them.
But there comes a time when we make a choice and question the validity of what our abusers threatened us with, I started about 5 years ago, and found out that they were lies.
I had 'enjoyed' the sex and asked for it almost daily over a 4 year period. They said it was what I wanted - it was a lie.
What I actually wanted was to avoid another beating and gang rape like the one I endured early on in the abuse.

I do genuinly appreciate your feelings when people like me use words like "hope" - but we don't use these words lightly or to taunt others. We use them because by making choices we have improved our lives. I've gone from giving strangers blow jobs, depression and all kinds of other crap to a reasonably well adjusted life where my abusive history doesn't overpower everything I do.

So one of the things I can genuinly offer to other survivors is HOPE.

Quote:
We all talk vaguely about the word HOPE. If there is hope for me, then I must deny me, I must learn to punish me when I think improper thoughts. I must accept my wife and kids and totally give myself to them, denying any and all desire for myself; I therefore no longer exist as an individual, I'm an extension of them.
I totally disagree with you here Jim, there IS hope if you make some hard choices, and you've made choices before of choosing to marry, be a father, your faith. None made lightly I have no doubt.
Make another to accept that hope is a reality.
Then you wont have to punish yourself for having improper thoughts, you can deal with them with therapy and confession.
Improper thoughts are hard to stop, for all my positive talk I still have them, today has been one of those days when I was troubled by them - but I made a choice a while back that I would seek help ( therapy ) and I have learnt to deal with them in my own way.

Accept yourself Jim, accept your family. You are a lucky man to have children.
Devote yourself to them and yourself, your healing might result in you learning more about yourself than you want to know right now, but we learn new things, new ways of coping and living, we adjust.

We become individuals, and leave our abusers behind.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#13026 - 04/30/03 09:58 PM Re: My Torment
outis Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/27/03
Posts: 2260
Loc: Maryland USA
Jim, Jake,

I'm as guilty as anyone on this board of acting hopeless. I still don't have any clear vision of where I want to be. There are times when I feel I am "No Man" facing some dreadful creature and embarking on a long, painful journey. But I am damn sure that I can make changes (read choices) in my life to make it better.

Why am I sure? Because I see people like Muldoon and Mike stepping to the plate and taking the fight to protect others into their legislatures. Because I see young men like Josh, having suffered horrific abuse since a very young age, and Chris, with the abuse still so fresh in his past, taking the risk to find someone to trust again as they start to heal. And I see Victor, and Dave, and dozens of guys here, taking time from the rest of their lives and their recoveries, to make connections with other abuse survivors like ourselves, and to share stories of victories, large and small, and the lessons of defeats, because this is a rocky road. But every man, woman, and child on the planet has problems, and some of those are a helluva lot worse than pouring out my pain on a dial up internet connection. At least my kids ate today, and can look forward to sleeping under a roof tonight.

Guys, if you try to find hope, here, with a therapist, with a partner, wherever, you'll have a much better chance of finding it. It's really a facet of your free will. You will decide if/when/how you start to recover, and "if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."

Sincere thanks, you've given me a lot to think about and helped me a lot tonight.

Joe

_________________________
"Telemachos, your guest is no discredit to you. I wasted no time in stringing the bow, and I did not miss the mark. My strength is yet unbroken…"—The Odyssey, translated by W.H.D. Rouse

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#13027 - 04/30/03 10:11 PM Re: My Torment
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Mike, Dave & Joe:

Very well said all. Stuff I needed to hear today.
Thank you.

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#13028 - 04/30/03 10:15 PM Re: My Torment
jimrh Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/22/03
Posts: 273
Loc: Roswell, GA
You guys are all missing a key point to my post. If I accept the fact that I'm gay, then it is a FACT that I will loose my family, be ex-communicated from my immediate family and only get contact with kids on weekends. I will be an outcast. I don't know why this is so hard for anyone to understand or grasp.

If I remain in my beliefs of the Catholic church then living that lifestyle will also mean rejection.

We are talking about TOTAL rejection from everything that defines me as a person now.

SO......

My point is my only option is to figure out how to deny this, to have my hard drives reformatted so to speak.

Yes I have choices...they are clear, concise, precise. NOOOOOOOOOOo problem.

Jim


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#13029 - 04/30/03 10:47 PM Re: My Torment
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Quote:
You guys are all missing a key point to my post. If I accept the fact that I'm gay, then it is a FACT that I will loose my family, be ex-communicated from my immediate family and only get contact with kids on weekends. I will be an outcast. I don't know why this is so hard for anyone to understand or grasp.
Jim, maybe you're missing a point many of us are trying to make, one you finally affirm yourself:

Quote:
Yes I have choices...they are clear, concise, precise. NOOOOOOOOOOo problem.
Correct. You have choices. You have a choice. Even about your family. Think about it.

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#13030 - 04/30/03 10:55 PM Re: My Torment
Sick Puppy Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/03
Posts: 300
Loc: Nowhere Land
Well, Jim, if your final conclusion is that you are going to stay in the same situation that you're in now, then... well... I'm not sure why you posted this?

I run across this a lot. It seems like you're looking for us to tell you a way to stop being gay. That's not possible. You have two choices: either stay with your family, and be unfulfilled, or admit that you are gay and risk being shunned. Either choice is difficult, but... that's life, I guess.

Just because you are gay, though, does not mean your children will hate you or dislike you at all. Many couples that have divorced because of one member's homosexuality still have equal involvement in their children's lives. It's not like it is something you can help. It's not like a divorce because of unfaithfulness... you didn't choose to be gay.

_________________________
And one day we will die
And our ashes will fly
From the aeroplane over the sea
But for now we are young
Let us lay in the sun
And count every beautiful thing we can see


Neutral Milk Hotel - In the Aeroplane Over the Sea

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#13031 - 05/01/03 04:34 AM Re: My Torment
jimrh Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/22/03
Posts: 273
Loc: Roswell, GA
Victor, I'm thinking REAL HARD HERE. Yes, there are choices. I give up myself and submit to one lifestyle or I give up my family and accept another lifestyle.

IT IS PLAIN AND SIMPLE. Why can't anyone understand this!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!

Just as I was walking across an overpass yesterday evening, I had a choice of either jump or not. I thought real hard. The choice was there.

It is so unbelievably easy for those of you who are not married and have accepted your lifestyle and come out to your family to say that I have a FUCKING CHOICE.

It is also painfully apparent that many of you out there who ARE married and have made peace with yourselves and accepted and embraced your hetero side do NOT UNDERSTAND what it means to be in that situation without ANY desire for women.

Sick Pup, I appreciate your comments. However, my understanding of this site (as previously posted in another topic started by me on the usefulness of this site)is that it is to be a place where we can be open and talk freely about our issues. If this is not that, then I guess I'm in the wrong place.

I was trying to make a statement to anyone who would listen that I have a tormented soul and I am crying. I am crying because I have no-one to turn to. I am crying because I feel like going the way of WOZ . I am crying because I am not the man I am expected to be.

I feel like right now I can't go further, and I was trying to say something, anything to anyone who would listen.

I am sorry if you feel like I was cruel and hurtful. It is not my intention to hurt anyone at all. I am sorry that my cynicism came through as hateful. I do not intend that. You are a beautiful person and I am grateful that you are here.

I am screaming because it feels like no-one understands.

That is all. Thanks.

Jim


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#13032 - 05/01/03 07:39 AM Re: My Torment
zadok1 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/05/02
Posts: 188
Loc: Ohio
jim,

i understand all too well. i am bi-sexual, and worse, zoosexual. I worship the same God as you, and am given the same set of rules. I cannot be those things and honor my faith. i know that conflict because i live it every day. i could turn away from my faith this moment, give myself over to the things i want, and give up all that i have, but i can't.

i feel trapped in a world that assigns me morality that doesnt fit the core of who i am. rather it was life, or some flawed gene, i am sexually atracted not only to women, but men and animals. those are undeniable facts, and as long as i lived by feelings and emotions, there was no way out.

there is another way, to live by logic and intellect. to know your emotions are lying to you when they call you worthless and sick, and to believe the logic instead of the heart. logic says you are not worthless, because your wife and kids value you. intellect says that being with a man is wrong, and again your emotions are lying to you. How do you live? You downplay and fight off the emotions with logic and intellect. you label those feeligns and voices for what they are, lies, a pack of lies.

yes, i could go be with men, women and animals. i could give my self over to all those sexual lusts, and would i be any happier? no, i would only feel lost and sick. i have spoken of acceptance and hope. acceptance is realizing it is okay to want to be with a man, and it is okay to want anything in the world. then comes a choice. i am bi-sexual, but i choose to be with my wife. i want to be with other women, but i choose to be with my wife. choice doesnt have to be a bad thing. it seems bad because you focus on what you are loosing instead of what you are gaining. by choosing your wife you give up the chance to be with men, but look at what you in place of that. you watch your kids grow andlearn and prosper. you watch them enjoy what you never had. we all make choices in life, and with each choice we give up something in exchange for something else. i stopped focusing on those things i lost, and began focusing on my gains. it has really helped me.

yes, i still want men and animals, but i have made a choice, a logical, heart-felt choice to be where i am. i have given up one pleasure for another, not sacrificed all of me, but part of me. i dont know if i can get my meaning across in terms you will pick up on, but i surely hope so. i feel i understand you more than you know. in many ways, i am you, only a little further down the line as far as coming to grips with things.

take care
jeff

_________________________
The world is a dangerous place, not because of those that are evil, but because of those who do nothing about them- Albert Einstein

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#13033 - 05/01/03 09:11 AM Re: My Torment
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Jeff.

What can I add. Nothing! It comes down to choices and what you are gaining
Thankyou

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

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#13034 - 05/01/03 09:26 AM Re: My Torment
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Jim again
Quote:
I was trying to make a statement to anyone who would listen that I have a tormented soul and I am crying. I am crying because I have no-one to turn to. I am crying because I feel like going the way of WOZ . I am crying because I am not the man I am expected to be.

I feel like right now I can't go further, and I was trying to say something, anything to anyone who would listen.

What kind of man are you expected to be? And by whom? All you can be is the man you are. You are a nurturing father and provider. Dammit man that is a huge thing. You have made sure, to the best of your ability, to protect your family from that terrible evil that we all suffered here. Another huge thing.

You are only looking at one part of yourself and that is just a small piece of you. As zadok says you must choose and think of what you are gaining instead of losing.

Jim we do listen to you. We listen, we offer suggestions, we have been where you are and we have made our choices to our benefit.

I really am sorry that you are in such pain but do not ever contemplate what WOZ did. That is letting the perps win totally. Jim you are worth more than that. It is also pretty selfish on your part. Who will explain to your children and wife. What kind of burden will they carry throughout their lives. You dont want to hurt anybody so think about that.
And finally what about the new emembers who arrive here almost daily, taking their first tentative steps out of what they perceive to be a hopeless situation. IF we do what you are comtemplating we send them a pretty strong message dont we.

Am I unconcerned about how you feel. Definetly not. Like Zadok I was involved with men animals and there is no perverted thing I have not been involved in. But that does not stop me from trying to be a decent person in my own eyes. My Choice again.

Hope this helps

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

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#13035 - 05/01/03 10:14 AM Re: My Torment
Sleepy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 288
Loc: Arizona, USA
Jeff,
You were incredibly open and honest. Thanks for sharing yourself with us. And all it can do is help everyone here, including yourself.
Take care,
mike

_________________________
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end."
--Ursula K. Le Guin

"Mental health is a commitment to reality at all times."
--M. Scott Peck

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#13036 - 05/01/03 10:24 AM Re: My Torment
zadok1 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/05/02
Posts: 188
Loc: Ohio
You know when honesty and openness becomes easy? When hiding it all becomes too much to bear. I cannot describe the embarrassment of having my wife catch me with all the bestiality porn, and furry garbage, but I also cannot deny that as healing came, it was a relief as well. As hard as it was to face the truth, it is harder hiding it.

_________________________
The world is a dangerous place, not because of those that are evil, but because of those who do nothing about them- Albert Einstein

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#13037 - 05/01/03 10:36 AM Re: My Torment
randy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/24/02
Posts: 30
Loc: Pittsburgh, Pa
My friend,
You speak in such absolutes.
"I give up myself and submit to one lifestyle or I give up my family and accept another lifestyle."
That is what you think and fear will happen.
Who said you have to give up your family?
Who said you had to have one or the other?
You can have both!!
They will just be different.
You seem to have a lot of love in your heart.
There would beplenty of room for both.
do you love your woman as a person if not as a lover? If you do then a great friendship could develop between you. It is not all dark and pointless. A new life comes after you make peace with your own decisions.
I do understand how you are feelling. I have dealt with this same issue.
All I really want to say is dont be so sure what will be the outcome of any revelations you make.


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#13038 - 05/01/03 10:59 AM Re: My Torment
Les_Angry Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 195
Hey Jim,

I think God gives us all temptations of one sort or another. I don't have attraction to guys, but sometimes I'll see a really hot 15 year old girl and I'll start thinking hmmm... what if... NO, NO.

You might ask why God made you be attracted to men through no choice of your own if you are not allowed to act on your urges. But I could all say the same thing about, like, Britney Spears. Why did God make me attracted to her if I am not allowed to act on my urges, its not fair!

I remember about 10 years ago I went home and saw relatives I hadn't seen in maybe 5 years. My first cousin who is maybe 5-7 years younger than me had matured to look identical to a younger version of my wife. Yaaaa. She always was very flirtatious with me, talk about conflict! Then I go home and my wife wants me to sleep with her... I think I waited a couple of days to clear my mind, or maybe I thought about someone who looked completely different than either of them just to be safe, I don't remember.

Anyway, I think God gives us all temptations of one sort or another. I don't blame or hate you or anyone else who struggles with urges you can't act on, because I think that describes all of us.

Peace
MO Healing


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#13039 - 05/01/03 11:28 AM Re: My Torment
Sleepy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 288
Loc: Arizona, USA
Jeff,
Quote:
You know when honesty and openness becomes easy? When hiding it all becomes too much to bear.
Ain't that the truth! And it feels really good to be honest with yourself and everyone around you.

_________________________
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end."
--Ursula K. Le Guin

"Mental health is a commitment to reality at all times."
--M. Scott Peck

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#13040 - 05/01/03 11:38 AM Re: My Torment
Sick Puppy Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/03
Posts: 300
Loc: Nowhere Land
Quote:
Originally posted by Les_Angry:
Hey Jim,

I think God gives us all temptations of one sort or another. I don't have attraction to guys, but sometimes I'll see a really hot 15 year old girl and I'll start thinking hmmm... what if... NO, NO.

You might ask why God made you be attracted to men through no choice of your own if you are not allowed to act on your urges. But I could all say the same thing about, like, Britney Spears. Why did God make me attracted to her if I am not allowed to act on my urges, its not fair!

I remember about 10 years ago I went home and saw relatives I hadn't seen in maybe 5 years. My first cousin who is maybe 5-7 years younger than me had matured to look identical to a younger version of my wife. Yaaaa. She always was very flirtatious with me, talk about conflict! Then I go home and my wife wants me to sleep with her... I think I waited a couple of days to clear my mind, or maybe I thought about someone who looked completely different than either of them just to be safe, I don't remember.

Anyway, I think God gives us all temptations of one sort or another. I don't blame or hate you or anyone else who struggles with urges you can't act on, because I think that describes all of us.

Peace
MO Healing
I don't know if this is the place for debate, but there's a fundamental flaw in your argument. Sure, if you're attracted to Britney Spears, you can't act on your attraction, but you can still have sexual relations with someone you ARE attracted to (your wife.) If you're gay and believe that it's against God then you're never going to be able to have sex with anyone you're attracted to.

_________________________
And one day we will die
And our ashes will fly
From the aeroplane over the sea
But for now we are young
Let us lay in the sun
And count every beautiful thing we can see


Neutral Milk Hotel - In the Aeroplane Over the Sea

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#13041 - 05/01/03 01:49 PM Re: My Torment
guy43 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 450
Loc: Minnesota
Quote:
I was trying to make a statement to anyone who would listen that I have a tormented soul and I am crying. I am crying because I have no-one to turn to. I am crying because I feel like going the way of WOZ . I am crying because I am not the man I am expected to be.

I feel like right now I can't go further, and I was trying to say something, anything to anyone who would listen.
Jim, I'm sorry you're in such pain. It's true I can't, nobody can when you get down to it, understand your situation and know the depth of anguish and suffering you're in.

What I can do is listen to your story. I can relate, in my own way, to being in such despair and inner pain and turmoil; where it seems like there are no answers, no way out of the depths of hell (inside our head).

I can relate to feeling trapped in a life that has it's good points and but seems to have far more bad points. I can really, really relate to feeling like I have no inner core of strength, no foundation of having gotten the healthy love and attention I needed when I was growing up.

You're not alone Jim. Many of us here have had such god awful trauma that we've gone many times to the abyss' edge to take a look at jumping in (aka suicide). I've cried over my losses in life soo much I've gotten tired of doing it, but I have so much more to do. I know I can count on going into my pain at least once a week when seeing my T, and usually two or three times a week... bad sleepless nights, memories, grief, etc. ad nauseum.

I've been in an inner place where I couldn't hear or understand what other's (T's, doctors, friends) were saying when trying to help me.

I think we (forum posters) tend, as men are taught or hard wired to do, we tend to want to fix the problem like it's a car engine needing a new spark plug. This isn't a bad thing, but sometimes we want to help another man so bad we forget to listen, or... we start inserting our own judgemental values on another man when sharing from our own experiences and beliefs.

How can I help you Jim? Do you want or need advice? Do you just need someone to listen and understand your situation?

jer


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#13042 - 05/01/03 04:25 PM Re: My Torment
jimrh Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/22/03
Posts: 273
Loc: Roswell, GA
SP - good catch in understanding and listening (thank you!).

"if you're attracted to Britney Spears, you can't act on your attraction, but you can still have sexual relations with someone you ARE attracted to (your wife.) If you're gay and believe that it's against God then you're never going to be able to have sex with anyone you're attracted to." HALLELUJA, SOMEONE GETS IT!

Let me add a few more if's: If you're gay and believe it is against God AND you KNOW that your family will reject you (because they've said it in so many words) and your wife has TOLD you on two occaisions in very clear, concise terms of the concesequences (becoming an outcast, divorce, taking everything she possible can from me, short of my life because then the money obviously stops) and the very real possibility of my kids rejecting me when they grow up and KNOW that it's against God and Mom has fed them all these years that I'm lower than Whale Shit. You know that that is reality because her sisters have done it to their ex husbands and her mother did it to her father.

I feel trapped because I know deep in my hear that staying means giving up any semblance of ever having satisfaction in sex/relationships. Everyone is so easy to say that sex is a minor part of life. HELLO, if it were, then why wouldn't we all just be absitent and then there'd be no AIDS, unwanted pregnancies and EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US WOULD ONLY USE IT FOR PROCREATION.

I am trapped because I know it will mean giving up any and all things that have ever made me feel good. It means making that pipeline of satisfaction which currently feels like a one-way valve outward from me, even bigger, only this time it becomes permanently outward and sooner or later, I run out. My satisfaction will no longer matter, that is clear.

To all of you who have strongly suggested that I stay with my wife, watch my kids grow old, have grandkids etc, you are right. It is the only way to go. It makes sense because the alternative price to pay is too great. No way out. I chose this bed, now I must sleep in it even if I can't fall asleep it's what I've got.

To all of you who say that I should just accept being gay and that the consequense REALLY aren't that bad, you don't get it. You don't get it because you're not here, you don't know my wife, my family.

There is no such thing as a friend to turn to, there are none. There will be none because now that my wife knows all, I can never ever think of having a male friend. There would always be suspicions and any time spent with him, even playing golf or having a beer would be seen as robing her of time that I owe her and the kids. Guys, please don't patronize me on this. It is my reality. It has already happened, it is happening. How can I say this? Because she's told me clearly and concisely, over and over again. I submit.

In the end, I didn't intend for this post to make people feel sorry for me or anything. More than anything else, I have no friends to turn to and I just need an outlet. I appreciate all of you for listening. You're all I've got. ;\)

Jim


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#13044 - 05/01/03 06:11 PM Re: My Torment
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Jake I did not imply that you have. I said that I have been guilty of that and I think we all have at one time or another. Self pity is "Why me" Why not someone else and shit like that.

You are one who has obviously made the right choices for you and I admire you for doing it on your own.
Yeh I did drugs cause it was given to me when I was helpless by some cops. I take responsibility for that because I sold myself to them to let them do what they wanted in the hopes that they would kill me cause I did not have the guts to do it myself. I take full responsibility for that.
What I dont take responsibility for is the constant physical abuse at home or the sexual perversions of my perps at military college. That was piss poor timing on my part and being born to the wrong family.
Yes I do get the poor me's and quite often. Does that make less of a man. I guess it does according to some.
A beautiful woman came into my life at a critical time. Should I have pushed her away because of what I had become. I guess I should have.
I must take responsibility for my life. Therefore I am a piece of shit and not worthy of living and so I try to end it. Well let me tell you I tried that too and it was dead wrong.
And, even with all my faults, I can now feel a little more comfortable saying that inside I am not such a bad asshole.
Once again I did not mean to demean or suggest anything and if you took it that way I appologize. Maybe I should shut up too.

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

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#13045 - 05/01/03 07:29 PM Re: My Torment
outis Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/27/03
Posts: 2260
Loc: Maryland USA
Quote:
In the end, I didn't intend for this post to make people feel sorry for me or anything. More than anything else, I have no friends to turn to and I just need an outlet. I appreciate all of you for listening. You're all I've got.
Jim,

I hope I did not come across as lecturing you. I'm pretty sure I did not send you the message I wanted to send.

We're here for each other. That's the whole reason this board is here. We, the male survivors of sexual abuse, find strength, make strength, by sharing ourselves here.

So, you're absolutely correct that we're here and you've got us. Jer hit the nail on the head:

Quote:
How can I help you Jim? Do you want or need advice? Do you just need someone to listen and understand your situation?
I can't speak for anyone else, but I know that I would like to do what I can to help you in this time. I'd bet that many others here would, too.

Don't let my being slow on the uptake hinder your use of the boards for what you need them for. I'll try my best to listen without being judgmental.

HTH,

Joe

_________________________
"Telemachos, your guest is no discredit to you. I wasted no time in stringing the bow, and I did not miss the mark. My strength is yet unbroken…"—The Odyssey, translated by W.H.D. Rouse

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#13046 - 05/01/03 11:32 PM Re: My Torment
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Jim,

Your last post there made things a lot clearer. Still you don't owe me or any of us any detailed explanations.

At any rate, I obviously just don't get it. But that's not important. The important thing is that you get it out, and do what you can with it, as limited & as difficult as your options may well be.

Sorry if I offended you.

Quote:
You know when honesty and openness becomes easy? When hiding it all becomes too much to bear.
Jeff,

A quote for the ages. Thanks for your very open & honest sharing.

Quote:
I don't blame or hate you or anyone else who struggles with urges you can't act on, because I think that describes all of us.
Ditto, Mo. And thanks for sharing your struggles & temptations; I relate to them all too much.

Quote:
we choose to believe what we want. i choose to believe that there are more things than what is at the surface. i choose to search for an understanding of those things. i choose to learn from them, and use this life for something, considering it was given to me, and should not be wasted. i choose to search deeper, and in doing so, i see my flaws. i choose to acknowledge those flaws, and if that makes me some kind failure, so be it. that cannot be helped. i am not satisfied with merely saying i have a choice. i want to know what drives that choice.

and for that, i am not one of you.
Jake, if you say that makes you not one of "us," that is your choice, tho I hope it's one you don't make. Believe me, I am very driven to find what drives the choices I make. It's just that when the rubber hits the road, I want to be the one driving my choices, irregardless of other forces that have driven my choices. That doesn't stop me from constantly asking why. Even tho my T says I ask it too much.

Jim, tho I don't understand, I certainly echo what Joe says.

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#13047 - 05/02/03 05:54 AM Re: My Torment
jimrh Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/22/03
Posts: 273
Loc: Roswell, GA
Jake,

your two posts here could have been written by me....

"i choose to search deeper, and in doing so, i see my flaws. i choose to acknowledge those flaws, and if that makes me some kind failure, so be it. that cannot be helped."

So many times I have searched deep inside me for answers and as I have found the answers, I have found my flaws and therefore the reasons for much of my pain throughout life.

You say "in terms of family, i didn’t have a childhood. i’ve been adult as long as i can remember, and i’ve never had any feeling of being an ‘innocent’ child. i was taught and learned to put my family first, and as a result, i pour everything into them, without concern for myself. i grew tired of sex, and now have no real desire for it. "

Same story. In recognizing my flaws, my despair, I now see no desire for anything. At some point I may gain the understanding of why this is so.

So many of us have lost childhoods. We were never nor can we ever be children. It's past. It was robbed. At the moment I'm grieving just a slight bit for that child I never was.

I see kids playing happily and I feel week and want to melt. I just want to sink into the shadows as quickly as I can because it can be nothing more than a dream. It is my fantasy - to be reborn as that boy I see, playing on the street, happy. Carefree. Loved.

Able to throw a baseball without being laughed at.

I wanted a son to love, but was granted three daughters instead. That's ok, it's my destiny. I love them no less.

As corny as it may sound, somewhere out there in the universe of time, there is a boy. His name was not BOY, as his father only called him.

His name was Jim ;\)


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