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#13019 - 04/30/03 03:18 PM My Torment
jimrh Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/22/03
Posts: 273
Loc: Roswell, GA
I guess I'm going to do it, post this here regardless of the consequences. At the very least maybe writing this will in some freakish way be therapeutic.

Dealing with my SA (and I have to throw in my PA - physical abuse which is a bigger issue) through therapy and discussions with a few of you and with my wife, I have come to some conclusions, although still have some questions that to me seem epic in proporation.

For me there are three levels of despair that result from my view of self (what and who am I EXACTLY):

1. Family - from my first family, as many of you also had, I experienced NO childhood. To cope with a father who beat me constantly (but not my siblings) as well as his mental anguish, I learned to do whatever I could to gain the acceptance from whoever I could. This resulted in falling into the arms of an older cousin who did appreciate me for 6 years. For that I am grateful. Never having any view of any self worth, I thought that if I married and had a family of my own that this would all go away and that I would not have any attraction for men. Didn't work that easily. Now that I have that family (loving one at that), I know that if I accept my sexuality, I will THROW AWAY this family as well as my first family, albeit loose ties anyway. Result : Complete loss of any and all family ties.

2. Spiritual. We've all thought at least about God in some fashion. Whatever your beliefs, mine are driven by my conversion to Catholocism. If I accept the doctrines of the church, which I do, then homosexuality is a sin. If I act on the desire for men, then I am sinning, plain and simple. The only way to deal with this is to live chastly. How do you do that? I don't know but I'm checking it out. Result: Complete loss of any ties to God. Perhaps worse after I'm gone.

3. Self. What is self. My view of myself is admittedly not positive at all. Realizing where it came from, I don't know what to do about it to improve. I will say that someone telling me to have HOPE or think POSITIVE or BELIEVE that you are special, not worthless and not an abomination or despicable are simply empty words. Look at it this way: If you grow up being told both directly and indirectly that you are not desireable, that you are unwanted/hated/detested by your own father, then you believe that you are because you have external validation as such by others. You didn't just hit upon the idea suddenly and ran with it. Likewise, if you want to believe that you are a worthy person, then you must have external validation to support it. Without any external validation of positive self, then all the positive feel-good therapeutic activities that you engage in are nothing more than empty words. Nice words, indeed, but meaningless.

Result of self acceptance that I'm Gay: validation within myself that I'm both worthless to my family and to God. What else is there then?

To be fair to all the members on this discussion board, I understand that my dilemma pales in comparison to most, if not all.

So my only logical option here (other than the ultimate option) is to reject the part of me that I cannot accept because the personal price to pay is epic.

We all talk vaguely about the word HOPE. If there is hope for me, then I must deny me, I must learn to punish me when I think improper thoughts. I must accept my wife and kids and totally give myself to them, denying any and all desire for myself; I therefore no longer exist as an individual, I'm an extension of them.

I'm almost there.


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#13021 - 04/30/03 05:34 PM Re: My Torment
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Quote:
in terms of self, i have no purpose. i was born to be used.
Jake:

I empathize, painfully so...

Quote:

My own abuse, a sense of being hated, unwanted, & made an object of vengeance, began with me in the womb, while still attached to my unwed mothers' umbilical cord, thru which I could feel the malice
against all men that my mother held & would take out on my her "bastard" firstborn son.

Right from the start I learned some bad stuff & picked up some bad vibes thru my body that got trapped there & became the foundation for my emotional & physical life into adulthood. I'm still dealing with it.
http://www.malesurvivor.org/cgi-local/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001839

Quote:
i have no real answers or suggestions for filling that void. like you, i'm just here, i just exist, with no purpose, and no real validation.
Jake, right now I'm feeling much that way myself. Yet I believe each of us is our own validation by our existence, irregardless of anyone else.

It does help to have the help of others.

But not the damned abuse!

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#13022 - 04/30/03 05:49 PM Re: My Torment
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Jim and Jake
Quote:
still feel this way, and still thin in these terms, despite leaving the situation, despite having a place of supportive people around me. you’re right, others saying ‘have hope’ and ‘believe’ are empty words because that isn’t validation. and validation has to be more than superficial.

however, a great part of that lies within. what i might say means nothing. if it came from a loved one, it might have a greater meaning.

yet the point you make is solid. all the kind words in the world won’t change the feeling of worthlessness, and hurt is harder to change than happiness. those changes must come from within. my neighbor is one of the kindest people i know, and i don’t doubt his intentions. his words, however, don’t change my internal thoughts, though i know he means it when he says i’m a worthy person.

the emptiness, then, might not always come from the words themselves, but be projected into them from within oneself.

to give selflessly is a fine quality, but i can tell you from experience, the emptiness will remain. i would die for my cousins and brothers. i care for them, i love them, more than anything else. but doing that does not make me love myself, nor does it complete me. you can fake it, as you’re suggesting, or accept the emptiness, as i do, but it is still there.

i have no real answers or suggestions for filling that void. like you, i’m just here, i just exist, with no purpose, and no real validation.

jake
Ok lets cut to the chase and be a bit more direct here. Wont use
Quote:
others saying ‘have hope’ and ‘believe’ are empty words because that isn’t validation. and validation has to be more than superficial.
You both suffered horrible abuse and were told that you were worthless. And you believed it cause that is what they wanted you to believe.
Now you cannot change the fact of your abuse but you and only you can change the feelings inside.
You are right there are no magic answers and nobody will tell you what to do or how to do it. We can only, trhough our posts and in answers to posts relate to others what we tried and what worked and what did not.

I am sorry if this sound harsh but IT IS YOUR CHOICE TO CONTINUE TO BELIEVE WHAT YOUR PERPS TOLD YOU. AND IT IS ALSO YOUR CHOICE TO SAY THAT IS EFFEN BULLSHIT. REALLY QUITE SIMPLE

You exist and dont live, you think you might be gay, you will have to give up your family. TELL ME WHY. LIFE IS ALL ABOUT CHOICES AND ADAPTING TO DIFFERENT SITUATIONS. IF YOU CANNOT ADAPT AND MAKE CHOICES YOU HAVE NO ONE TO BLAME BUT YOURSELF.
Now you did not have a choice about the sa and none of us here did. We coped as best we could and that further piled crap on our selfworth.

I said somewhere that I dont know what my orientation is. My wife came into my life at a crucial time and I am satisfied with that. THAT IS MY CHOICE. It still does not answer the question. Had it been a Man? I dont know? BUT I WILL TELL YOU THIS I DONT DWELL ON IT. AND THAT IS MY CHOICE AND MINE ALONE. AND IT IS MY CHOICE TO SPEND THE REST OF MY LIFE WITH HER AND HOPEFULLY HAVE GRANDCHILDREN TO SPOIL. IT IS ALL ABOUT CHOICES.

Now you say religion dictates that being gay is a sin. IT IS MY CHOICE TO BELIEVE THAT THAT IS A CROCK OF SHIT. I choose to believe that we were created to share life with someone. MY CHOICE.

I cannot tell you what choices to make. I can only tell you the choices I have made and how it has helped my change my view o myself.
IT IS MY CHOICE TO SAY THAT I AM NOT WORTHLESS. AND IT IS MY CHOICE TO SAY THAT MY PERPS, THE COUNSELLOR AT THE YMCA, AND MY CUSTOMERS WERE ALL FULL OF SHIT. IT IS MY CHOICE TO SEEK PERSONAL CONFIRMATION THAT I HAVE WORTH. I SEE IT IN MY WIFES EYES AND HER GENTLE TOUCH. I SEE IT IN A BEAUTIFUL AND STRONG WILLED DAUGHTER WHO IS NOW A YOUNG WOMAN. I SEE IT AT WORK AND I SEE IT IN THE CAMERADERIE HERE.
BROTHERS IT IS ALL ABOUT CHOICES AND THAT IS IT.

MULDOON HERE TALKED ABOUT MAKING A PRESENTATIO TO THE MINNESOTA STATE LEGISLATURE. I TOLD HIM THAT I THOUGHT IT WAS GREAT BUT THE OUTCOME WOULD BE THE SAME OLD SHIT. THEN I APOLOGIZED FOR MY RANT.
HE WROTE BACK THAT IT IS OK TO RANT AND STAY ON THE SIDELINES WHERE OTHERS MAKE CHOICES TO CHANGE THINGS.

That galvanized me and I am now in the process of making a presentatio to my provincial government. I CHOOSE TO DO THIS SO THAT OTHERS MIGHT FIND IT EASIER TO GET HELP THAN I DID. ONCE AGAIN MY CHOICE.

I think that I have made a difference in little Alan's life. He has suffered so much and almost gave up. AGAIN IT WAS MY CHOICE. NOBODY TOLD ME WHAT TO DO. And getting back to god again. I believe he had a hand in saving little Al. MY CHOICE TO BELIEVE THIS

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

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#13023 - 04/30/03 05:55 PM Re: My Torment
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Forgot to add one thing.

I have been guilty of wallowing in self pity and seeing everything as black and that there is no hope and that I deserve every god damned bad things that have happened to me. I think we all have.
BUT IT IS MY CHOICE NOT TO DO THIS ANYMORE AND IF I SEE IT STARTING TO HAPPEN I SLAP IT DOWN. I TRY TO LIVE EACH DAY TO THE BEST OF MY ABILITY. I AM NOT AN EXTENSION OF MY FAMILY BUT AN INTEGRAL PART. MY CHOICE.

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

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#13024 - 04/30/03 07:34 PM Re: My Torment
jimrh Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/22/03
Posts: 273
Loc: Roswell, GA
Mike,

I just want to thank you for completely invalidating everything I said.


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#13025 - 04/30/03 08:20 PM Re: My Torment
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Jim
I totally agree with Mike, it's OUR CHOICE.

Our abusers lied to us when they put us down and made us feel worthless, and in the face of nothing disproving those lies then we carry on believing them.
But there comes a time when we make a choice and question the validity of what our abusers threatened us with, I started about 5 years ago, and found out that they were lies.
I had 'enjoyed' the sex and asked for it almost daily over a 4 year period. They said it was what I wanted - it was a lie.
What I actually wanted was to avoid another beating and gang rape like the one I endured early on in the abuse.

I do genuinly appreciate your feelings when people like me use words like "hope" - but we don't use these words lightly or to taunt others. We use them because by making choices we have improved our lives. I've gone from giving strangers blow jobs, depression and all kinds of other crap to a reasonably well adjusted life where my abusive history doesn't overpower everything I do.

So one of the things I can genuinly offer to other survivors is HOPE.

Quote:
We all talk vaguely about the word HOPE. If there is hope for me, then I must deny me, I must learn to punish me when I think improper thoughts. I must accept my wife and kids and totally give myself to them, denying any and all desire for myself; I therefore no longer exist as an individual, I'm an extension of them.
I totally disagree with you here Jim, there IS hope if you make some hard choices, and you've made choices before of choosing to marry, be a father, your faith. None made lightly I have no doubt.
Make another to accept that hope is a reality.
Then you wont have to punish yourself for having improper thoughts, you can deal with them with therapy and confession.
Improper thoughts are hard to stop, for all my positive talk I still have them, today has been one of those days when I was troubled by them - but I made a choice a while back that I would seek help ( therapy ) and I have learnt to deal with them in my own way.

Accept yourself Jim, accept your family. You are a lucky man to have children.
Devote yourself to them and yourself, your healing might result in you learning more about yourself than you want to know right now, but we learn new things, new ways of coping and living, we adjust.

We become individuals, and leave our abusers behind.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#13026 - 04/30/03 09:58 PM Re: My Torment
outis Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/27/03
Posts: 2260
Loc: Maryland USA
Jim, Jake,

I'm as guilty as anyone on this board of acting hopeless. I still don't have any clear vision of where I want to be. There are times when I feel I am "No Man" facing some dreadful creature and embarking on a long, painful journey. But I am damn sure that I can make changes (read choices) in my life to make it better.

Why am I sure? Because I see people like Muldoon and Mike stepping to the plate and taking the fight to protect others into their legislatures. Because I see young men like Josh, having suffered horrific abuse since a very young age, and Chris, with the abuse still so fresh in his past, taking the risk to find someone to trust again as they start to heal. And I see Victor, and Dave, and dozens of guys here, taking time from the rest of their lives and their recoveries, to make connections with other abuse survivors like ourselves, and to share stories of victories, large and small, and the lessons of defeats, because this is a rocky road. But every man, woman, and child on the planet has problems, and some of those are a helluva lot worse than pouring out my pain on a dial up internet connection. At least my kids ate today, and can look forward to sleeping under a roof tonight.

Guys, if you try to find hope, here, with a therapist, with a partner, wherever, you'll have a much better chance of finding it. It's really a facet of your free will. You will decide if/when/how you start to recover, and "if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."

Sincere thanks, you've given me a lot to think about and helped me a lot tonight.

Joe

_________________________
"Telemachos, your guest is no discredit to you. I wasted no time in stringing the bow, and I did not miss the mark. My strength is yet unbroken…"—The Odyssey, translated by W.H.D. Rouse

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#13027 - 04/30/03 10:11 PM Re: My Torment
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Mike, Dave & Joe:

Very well said all. Stuff I needed to hear today.
Thank you.

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#13028 - 04/30/03 10:15 PM Re: My Torment
jimrh Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/22/03
Posts: 273
Loc: Roswell, GA
You guys are all missing a key point to my post. If I accept the fact that I'm gay, then it is a FACT that I will loose my family, be ex-communicated from my immediate family and only get contact with kids on weekends. I will be an outcast. I don't know why this is so hard for anyone to understand or grasp.

If I remain in my beliefs of the Catholic church then living that lifestyle will also mean rejection.

We are talking about TOTAL rejection from everything that defines me as a person now.

SO......

My point is my only option is to figure out how to deny this, to have my hard drives reformatted so to speak.

Yes I have choices...they are clear, concise, precise. NOOOOOOOOOOo problem.

Jim


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#13029 - 04/30/03 10:47 PM Re: My Torment
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Quote:
You guys are all missing a key point to my post. If I accept the fact that I'm gay, then it is a FACT that I will loose my family, be ex-communicated from my immediate family and only get contact with kids on weekends. I will be an outcast. I don't know why this is so hard for anyone to understand or grasp.
Jim, maybe you're missing a point many of us are trying to make, one you finally affirm yourself:

Quote:
Yes I have choices...they are clear, concise, precise. NOOOOOOOOOOo problem.
Correct. You have choices. You have a choice. Even about your family. Think about it.

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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