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#129426 - 10/18/04 08:51 AM Begging for answers, Its long but please, please read. Thank you
Malidin41 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/01/04
Posts: 140
Loc: Utah
Hello my friends, I have not been apart of this discussion board long, so please forgive me if this post is not appropriate. I know it is long but please lend me some of your time; I am in desperate need of answers.

This post is intended to cover some very touchy ground. I am not implying or trying to justify by any means what sex offenders participate in. When I talk about children in this thread I am mainly addressing to older children such as 12 and above. My intentions for this post are to mainly find out if society is holding back our children in there developmental stages of sexuality. And to find out if what I went through was really abuse.

This is my first official post for trying to find opinions, suggestions, and well just for needing to share what my demons and struggles are. Let me begin by telling you a little about myself.

I was a victim of sexual abuse from the ages of six to nine and through allot of work in therapy I am now a survivor but still struggling with many things. I am 23 and find myself very confused about my sexuality, in fact that is the main reason I am writing this post. There have been many posts about sex offenders and the ideas that they have to make it ok to have sex with children and honestly, I have been afraid to post on this subject because of the ideas I have. Please forgive me, I do not want to hurt or offend or do anything that will bring sorrow. But I feel I should post these ideas to get some feed back. Let me say this before I continue. I do not condone or support anyone who wants to abuse children. I think hurting children in this way is sick and very wrong. Now then, with that being said please allow me to continue. I would appreciate any thoughts and ideas you may have on this very touchy subject. Again I'm sorry if this is not appropriate.

While reading this I ask you to please keep an open mind. I am a person that likes to view things from all different views before I make any judgments or assumptions about any subject and I am asking you to do the same. After reading please take some time to think about what you believe and what you think to be true. I greatly appreciate your time. Here is the matter at hand.

Sexual offenders, perpetrators, predators, perverts, boy lovers, girl lovers, (What ever you may call them.) What are they? Who are they? Where are they? These are all very important questions to cover. (What are they?) Are they freaks of nature? Are they lost causes that need to rot in jail? Are they really the titles listed above? I do not think so. I think they are people that have a bad addiction.
(Who are they?) Are they monsters that come crawling out of dark holes in the night? Are they lost souls that do not think or feel? Are they individuals who really want to search and destroy? I do not think so I think they are friends, neighbors, family, ETC. They are people who want to love.
(Where are they?) They are all around us. They are doctors, lawyers, tire busters, cleaners, police officers, fire fighters, security guards, solders, ETC. (way to many to list.) They are people just like you and I.

Now then that we know who and what they are, I want to ask where is the line drawn? Going back to the questions above, when is it safe to say that someone is a sex offender? Do we imprint this on people only when society says it's true? Or are they sex offenders when they cause any harm to children?

To me this question is prudent as we look at this subject because we must know where we stand as to not pass judgment too soon. With the way our society believes the imprint is placed on anyone that has any type of sexual contact with a child (Quote by Julia Whealin, PH.D.) Child sexual abuse includes a wide range of sexual behaviors that take place between a child and an older person. These sexual behaviors are intended to erotically arouse the older person, generally without consideration for the reactions or choices of the child and without consideration for the effects of the behavior upon the child. Behaviors that are sexually abusive often involve bodily contact, such as in the case of sexual kissing, touching, fondling of genitals, and oral, anal, or vaginal intercourse. However, behaviors may be sexually abusive even if they don't involve contact, such as in the case of genital exposure ("flashing"), verbal pressure for sex, and sexual exploitation for purposes of prostitution or pornography.

Looking at this I agree that it is a very good set up for deciding exactly what is sexual abuse. But on the other hand couldn’t sexual abuse also be possible if a mother or father is changing a baby’s diaper? I mean looking at the quote above it says, “Behaviors that are sexually abusive often involve bodily contact.” So wouldn’t cleaning the genitals of a baby be damaging to the child? You might say that abuse is only possible if the adult is attempting to get sexual gratification by the touching. Well if that is the case, then let’s look at things from this point of view. Would it be ok then to allow your children to sleep with you in the nude as long as there is no sexual gratification? Would it be ok for you to let your children go skinny dipping? Would it be ok to allow your children to lounge around the house in the nude? If not, why? Also in the above quote it states, “These sexual behaviors are intended to erotically arouse the older person, generally without consideration for the reactions or choices of the child and without consideration for the effects of the behavior upon the child.” Well what if consideration for what the child wants is respected? What if the choices of the child are respected? What if respect and explanation of the effects of the behavior are given?

You might ask, what do you mean? Well let’s break it down. (What if consideration for what the child wants is respected?) What I mean by this is, what if the child wants and asks for the behavior to take place? Would it be ok for you to give into and respect the child’s wishes? Your answer is probably no, mainly because of society’s belief that children do not have the mental capability to ask for such requests. If this is the case then why is it that most children experiment in this manner with peers and themselves and why is it that this type of behavior if done appropriately does not affect the child as abuse would? If children really can’t understand sexual interactions and are unable to consent to such behaviors then how is it that they are able to consent with there peers without the traumatizing affects taking place?

(What if the choices are respected?) What I mean by this is pretty much the same as listed above, what if the child chooses to take part in the acts? (Note) When I talk about choices and respect my meaning is to the fullest extent. If a child chooses to participate in such things then changes his/her mind later in the act then the act will and must immediately stop, no exceptions are possible for this matter. If you do not allow the child the ability to say no and let them have full control of the situation, then abuse will definitely become present whether you are a peer or an adult. Also note that the acts I am talking about are not ones that are in line with sexual interactions with adults. Having sex with a child if you are an adult is wrong and should never be questioned. What I am talking about is can children do things such as lounge around there private house in the nude amongst adults if they so choose? Can they go skinny dipping with adults if that is there desire? Sex is not the issue here, my concern for this matter is I fear that sexual identity and innocent exploration is becoming more and more taboo and with that children are becoming more and more afraid of there own sexuality and there desires to have sex as they get older because of the extreme impression society places that children should never reveal there sexuality or express nudist acts. So because of this they are left with the idea that sex is bad and there bodies are bad which in turn creates extreme confusion about there sexuality. This I think is abusive in of it self and should be well studied.

(What if respect and explanation of the effects of the behavior are given?) What I mean by this is what if you explain to the child the consequences, and sex in general so he or she can make a decision? Again most of these questions are easily answered by the fact of society believing that children cannot make these choices because of there lack of experience in life and sex, which brings me to my next set of questions.

At this time I would like to go into some experiences I have had. Through my search for answers about all of this I have come across some individuals that have had some interesting views that I think might be prudent to list here. For the sake of confidentiality the name of the person I am going to discuss will be changed. This individual I do not know personally, I know him by online chatting.

The first person that I would like to talk about is my good friend Dave (once again not his real name.) I have known him now for about two years and feel by our chatting we have become good friends. Early on in our relationship he told me that he was a victim of sexual abuse when he was nine by his dad and that he struggles with it allot. He also continued to tell me that about a year after his abuse he became great friends with a neighbor of his that was 15 years older than him. During the relationship that he had with the man they had begun to have sexual interactions. He told me that he loved the man dearly and that the man never took advantage of him. He also said that the man was very careful to make sure that Dave understood what he was consenting to. When I asked Dave if the man abused him he said with great passion, “Absolutely not, I loved him and he loved me. What he gave me was great and I love him everyday for it.”

You might say that he is lying and is very confused because of the sexual abuse that he endured but if you knew him and talked with him you might think differently. I know allot about sexual abuse, the signs, the symptoms, the after affects, but when it comes to Dave and his adult friend I do not see any of that. Granted I do not know everything and I have not met him in real life but I do not see the signs. Dave is now 30 years of age.

I have met quite a few people with similar stories and find it interesting that they can have these relationships. Are they lying? Maybe, but what if it’s true? What if these types of relationships can be helpful and encouraging for the child’s sexual development? I have talked with many children and find them to be extremely intelligent. Is it possible that we underestimate the children of today? Is it possible that children really can make decisions for them selves to a higher degree than we allow? Is it possible that when society says they are not capable to decide for themselves, it is a false statement?

Now I would like to talk about my abuse. At first I did not understand or want the abuse, in fact I begged for it to stop. I hated it and never once asked for it to begin. As hard as this is for me to admit, eventually I got to the point where I started wanting it. I became extremely sexual, masturbating frequently and playing the same games with friends as my brother played with me. I do not know if that means that children can make these decisions but I do know that my confusion is great when it comes to this matter.

Now then for the last of my questions, if a child grants consent after having an in depth conversation about sex and the consequences behind it and after providing them a clear knowledge that it is more than ok to say no, if they grant consent is it possible as long as the adult does not cause physical harm and respects the child completely to allow them to be more open with there bodies? And is it possible for adults to do the same as long as the child is in agreement to the adults’ presents and actions.

Before answering this question I would like to go over one last thing and that is, why is it in the first place that sex with children is considered wrong in this society? After allot of thought I have come up with that there are three main reasons. 1. It can cause physical damage to the point of ending in death. 2. Children do not have the mental capacity to make an appropriate decision on this matter. 3. The psychological damage that it can cause. The first one that I have listed I have no problem with, engaging in anal sex with a child can not be ok no matter how you look at it, I am not saying any sexual contact with a child is ok I am just saying here the line is clearly drawn just because of the physical damage it can cause. For the second that is listed, I talked about above. And as far as the third one, reading this you can probably guess where I am going with it. If society said it is ok for people to bathe children no matter what age as long as the child grants consent would it be abusive? If society said that it is ok for children and adults to sleep together in the nude would it be abusive? If society said that it is ok for children and adults to go skinny dipping would that be abusive? I am wondering if these types of acts are only harmful because of what society imprints on our lives by its beliefs. If you look at reports made by persons that study life in nudist’s colonies you will see that they conclude that children are more open, down to earth and allot of other great attributes that our society is lacking.

I am posting this for two reasons, one is to find answers and the other is to see what others think about this whole idea. Again I am not by any means trying to convince anyone that sex with children is ok. I am not implying that child abuse should be accepted. I am only saying that these are some things I have thought about and would like to get other views and opinions about all of these questions. I hope this does not offend or hurt anyone; that is not my intension. Thank you all for your time and I am looking forward to all of your thoughts, opinions, and suggestions, your friend Malidin.

_________________________
Mother of the kingdom of silence I have obeyed you long enough!!!

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#129427 - 10/18/04 12:30 PM Re: Begging for answers, Its long but please, please read. Thank you
Ivo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 267
Loc: Germany
Malidin41 you are dangerously simplifying things!

First of all children are always the same. They were intelligent before equally as today's kids. Humans as a race didn't change their intelligence at all last couple of thousand of years (actually at least about 100 000 years).

Secondly, I do not understand the source of your confusion.

If sex with older people is ok why do you have to go on therapy? Why do I have empty holes in my mind, in my personality, in my identity etc.
Why I am so confused?; if that was all ok. I am not confused, wrong expression, I am systematically destroyed as a person. Why?

Because of sex that I had as a child.

Because of it I am not normal human being and it is very sad to be aware of it 24 hours per day.

So answer is no, it is not ok to have any sexual contact with children, never. No matter on what circumstances you are thinking about.
Children deserve to be children and to have childhood.

I would suggest that your friends should fill some of the tests for the checking of the mental diseases. I am sure that they would be very surprised how fuck*d up are they even they are not ready to admit to themselves the truth.

And society doesn't have anything with their state of the mind, only abuse.

PS. I was wondering what was going in your life, you weren't on the site for very long time.

Ivo


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#129428 - 10/18/04 12:47 PM Re: Begging for answers, Its long but please, please read. Thank you
phoster Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/21/03
Posts: 758
Loc: ohio
it is wrong because children cannot understand. they live for the moment, and have very little concept of long-term. to give consent, you must understand fully what you are consenting to, and kids just dont. as Ivo pointed out, all you have to do is look at the results. they speak volumes.

using memory regression, i was able to revisit my childhood, and finally understood things. i didnt understand sex at all. i knew the actions because i was abused, but i didnt understand the meaning of them at all. it was just some casual game to play.

then you grow and you begin to understand what it meant, and the older you get, the more you understand. then comes the guilt and shame. then you question yourself, label yourself, and hate yourself. just because the adult tells himself he is considering the child's feelings, it is just a way of rationalizing doing it. a child cannot consent. they dont have that mental ability.

_________________________
compassion is a light even to the darkest soul

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#129429 - 10/18/04 01:01 PM Re: Begging for answers, Its long but please, please read. Thank you
Malidin41 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/01/04
Posts: 140
Loc: Utah
Hello Ivo,

First I would like to thank you very much for taking the time to read my thread and for your responce. I just want you to know that I am not implying by any means that having SEX with children is ok. I am very against that and have no confusion about that. What I am asking is is it possable that because of societies beliefs that children are being held back in there development because of the huge stigma against nudisum and other curious games that children might pertisapate in. And well just being open and unashamed of there bodies.

The abuse that happened to you is in no way justified, I hate what happened to you and wish that it hadn't. Please remember and this goes for all who read this post, I am talking about consentual situations where the child has compleate and all control. I am not talking about allowing children to have sex with adults. I am talking about if children want to skinny dip, or if children want to sleep in the nude, or if children still want parents to read to them while they bathe, or if children want to watch the last 10 minutes of a television show in there underwear before they go to bed. I am wanting to know would these types of things be damaging if we were more open to them. If society said it was ok would it be damaging.

As far as your other question goes my friend I have been dealing with quite a bit in my life and have not had much time to get on line. I thank you though for noticing, it makes me feel very good that you were thinking of me. I hope this clears up all confusion about my post. Please post more if you will if you have any other questions or thoughts. Thank you so much your friend malidin

_________________________
Mother of the kingdom of silence I have obeyed you long enough!!!

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#129430 - 10/18/04 01:12 PM Re: Begging for answers, Its long but please, please read. Thank you
Malidin41 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/01/04
Posts: 140
Loc: Utah
Thank you phoster for your reply and for taking the time to read. I think I might be being miss understood. I am not by any means trying to say that sex with a child should be accepted. I am talking about allowing them to be more open with themselves. If a child walks out of his room in his underwear might it be just as abusive to say, "Child you are to old to be walking around like that cover yourself up I do not want to see that." By doing this might that imply to the child that his body is wrong and needs to be constantly hidden because of that wrongness. What I am trying to say is not at all in regards to sexual interaction with a child but more along the lines of being open and accepting for the child.

_________________________
Mother of the kingdom of silence I have obeyed you long enough!!!

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#129431 - 10/18/04 01:16 PM Re: Begging for answers, Its long but please, please read. Thank you
phoster Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/21/03
Posts: 758
Loc: ohio
the problem is that children dont have control. they dont have the knowledge to control, and are controlled by things around them. i think holding up nudity as wrong might be harmful, but as parents our greatest duty is to teach them right from wrong. you can teach a child that a nude body is beautiful and still instill that there are right and wrong times for it. being exposed to sexuality at very young ages harms children, period. they lack the understanding to consent to anything. even skinny dipping can have a very bad effect if it strikes them as sexual. if it effects how they feel and see themselves, it is just as damaging as anything. i remember skinny dipping with friends as a kid. nothing sexual about it, and i dont see it as harmful, but those friends were my age or close to it. no adults, no girls, just a few boys sneaking into a pond for a swim. i can see that same situation traumatizing another. basically, things are safest when we just ere on the side of the children.

_________________________
compassion is a light even to the darkest soul

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#129432 - 10/18/04 02:07 PM Re: Begging for answers, Its long but please, please read. Thank you
Sinking Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/26/03
Posts: 577
Loc: Took my ball and went home.
I suppose I've asked myself these questions, on some level, throughout my life. But through the reading I've done and the therapy I've worked on over the past several months, I've come to learn that children can not consent. I think what your post is truly addressing is the guilt we place upon ourselves as part of our struggle to deal with what happened to us when we were young. Children do not have the mental nor the emotional capacity to understand what the implications of sex are. Is it normal to show yours while the neighbor kid shows his? Yes, but that isn't so much about sex as it is about discovering what our bodies look like. The nude body, the genitals are not always sexual things. They are body parts to children and they should stay that way until the child reaches a mature enough age to begin to understand what his/her sexual urges are. Sharing these types of moments with peers is far different than someone in an authoritative postion betraying a child's trust. We trust adults to protect us, not to force us or manipulate us into physical acts that we are too young to process. Show me yours and I'll show you mine is children progressing and growing at a natural pace. Engaging in sexual acts with adults is not. That does not allow the child to discover what sex is on his/her own terms. I wondered for years if I was gay or bisexual because my body parts responded to a male performing sex acts on me. My mind and my sexuality hadn't had time to reach the level of maturity of the acts that were taking place. See the difference?

As for your question about parents changing a baby's diaper. To suggest that this is sexual in any way is absurd. The child needs to be cleaned. It is the parent's responsibility to be sure the child is clean. The only gratification here is a child without a diaper rash. The baby trusts that the parent will carry out his/her responsibility and that trust is not betrayed. When a pedohpile betrays that trust in a child he/she is sending the child confusing and damaging messages. It's not so much about the physical acts as it is about the trust. Children typically find sexual discussions, nevermind sexual activity, repulsive. Why would this person I trust want me to do these things that I find repulsive? And if this is how affection is shown, is that how I should show affection to those around me? And if the others around me don't show affection in the same way, does that mean they feel less affection for me? And if I feel so repulsed by what that person did and made me do how can I trust that someone else who is supposed to love and protect me won't do the same thing? We victims/survivors grow up with a skewed sense of love, trust, affection, sex, sexuality, self-worth and misplaced guilt.


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#129433 - 10/18/04 02:14 PM Re: Begging for answers, Its long but please, please read. Thank you
Dan88 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/07/02
Posts: 247
Loc: DC
The problem with your scenarios is too many ifs. You're dealing in science fiction rather than the real human condition. Is it possible that a society could exist where being a well-balanced adult and wanting to have sex with children would not be inconsistent? Sure. And people could have two heads, too. But for us humans the reality is that we are the species we are. Adults who want to involve themselves with children are very troubled individuals. And when they act out with kids, the results are painful for the kids for all the reasons that you and everyone here knows. And generally the younger the kid, the worse the effects are.

The other issue you're getting at -- when is some expression of sexuality healthy or reasonable for kids -- is a conundrum. Some kids at 15 are pretty mature and savvy. Emotionally they're adults. Others can be 24 and still be unprepared to handle sex or sexualized situations. The law, IMO, has done a good job creating a compromise. It says X is the age of consent. To those who reach maturity early, you have to hold up a while. To those who arrive later at maturity, you better work at speeding things up. It's not a perfect system, but it works for most people.

The one thing I find troubling about your posting is that this is the type of thinking that goes on in the groups that advocate child raping under the name of some expanded definition of love. They have a steady supply of what ifs and yes buts to answer any question. Like young children arguing over whatever rule it is that they find too restrictive. What if the kid wanted it. What if he didn't suffer from it. What if society didn't stigmatize the victims. Etc., etc. I'm sure you're as familiar with these wackos as I am. They engage in this sophistry, pretending to be more enlightened and advanced than the rest of the world. Not unlike drug addicts or violent criminals, they simply want to stay in their fantasy. When they step outside it, they don't like that they are unmasked as obviously selfish, heartless rapists who simply don't want to control their deviant appetites. Far easier to live with themselves when they pretend that they have some higher motive.

It's sad that we were victimized as children. And it's horrible to deal with the after effects. But I would encourage any survivor not to try to redefine what happened as somehow normal or acceptable in order to try to feel better about it. That's simply another way of slipping away from reality.


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#129434 - 10/18/04 03:04 PM Re: Begging for answers, Its long but please, please read. Thank you
Andrew Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/25/03
Posts: 1192
Malidin,

Despite the intermittent caveat that it is wrong for adults to have sex with children, your posting seems to be heading to some very dangerous waters. I am reminded of the following story/poem:

The Shark and the Turtle

The Shark once asked the Turtle for a ride across the sea,
The Turtle said, "I'm sorry, I can't, it would be the end of me....
You are, as you know, a shark," he said,"father told me of your kind. He said to stay away from your type, and his words still come to mind."

The Shark replied, "I'm different, I'm your brother, and a friend. Besides, you're keen with wisdom, not like the rest of them. Take me across the sea," he said, "and you'll see how fine I am. Before I'd hurt you, I'd cut out my heart and bury it in the sand."

The turtle said, "okay, my friend, my brother, let's begin." But not sooner had they left the shore when the demon prepared to sin.
As they advanced on through the waves the turtle was struck by pain. The shark then took another bite and said, "My, what a shame."
Before the turtle died he heard the Shark's voice harsh and shrill, "why, never trust a shark, for it's his nature, and he'll kill.

.....................


Quite frankly, despite your protestations to the contrary, some of your text could have been copied and pasted from the NAMBLA manifesto.

So while I won't directly call you a shark. I will say that if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck ..... ya, yer probably a duck.

....Andrew

_________________________
there is no courage without anxiety

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#129435 - 10/18/04 07:19 PM Re: Begging for answers, Its long but please, please read. Thank you
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5778
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
This discussion is important but I'm not sure if it should be here or in another area. I will be keeping a close watch on what gets posted here because this discussion will likely trigger many people. The topic is going to generate some strong feelings and may best be continued in At Risk to reduce the number of people jumping in. I'm going to quote a couple of paragraphs from the book I'm working on to help clarify this discussion in a less personal way. This is not to be reprinted or forwarded as it is still in progress.

There are other parts of Malindin's post that I may respond to as a professional.

Ken

WARNING: POSSIBLE TRIGGERS

Quote:
There are some who profess to be “boy lovers”. Ostensibly, groups like NAMBLA (North American Man-Boy Love Association), claim that they are not out to sexually abuse children but really love the pre-teen and teen boys for their “boyness”. They want to nurture and care for these boys and believe that a boy who is emerging into his sexuality should have an older male “guide” to help him explore and understand his new or soon-to-be-new hormones. Because his approach is one of seduction to bring himself to the boy’s level of interest, he may ingratiate himself with the boy and his parent as a kindly, generous, interested man. Exploiting the curiosity and interest the boy has about this new area of his life; the boy lover introduces sexual themes and behaviors to the boy.

We often see coaches, scout leaders and “big brothers” gain legitimate access to the boy and turn the relationship sexual. Most non-abusive men join these groups to enjoy and re-experience the fun times they had as boys, seeking to mentor youth and be good role models. They may become scoutmasters or coaches because they have children in these activities. Others are drawn ostensibly for similar reasons but have a sexual interest in boys that is probably not known to anyone but them. With some of these individuals, the sexual interest in boys may be hidden even to themselves but in the presence of opportunity (camping sleepover, for example), the sexual desire or behavior can come out. Then there are those who deliberately join such groups to have access to potential victims. They tend to have multiple victims over periods of years, if not caught.

Boy lovers have numerous websites. Some sites profess to permit postings only by men who “truly love boys” and are not looking to be sexual with them. Others talk about “inter-generational sex” (child-adult sexual relations) being all right as long as no force is used, and other sites are open with promoting child pornography images and child exploitation writings. The boy lovers are a varied lot with the commonality of at least a sexual interest in pre-pubescent or young adolescent boys.

Man-boy sexual relationships can be very insidious. The kind of boy who would most likely respond to the boy lover is one who wants an older male to take interest and spend time with him. Boys who do not have a father or father who is providing these needs are especially vulnerable to this predator. The trust that is deliberately built in this kind of relationship becomes a major betrayal for the youth when the situation turns sexual. The boy may be conflicted about refusing the sexual behaviors or telling someone, fearing his “friend” may get into trouble. He may feel ambivalent about the abuse itself.

Though boy lovers stress that they are not forceful or coercive, they actually believe that they are doing much more good than harm to the boy. They exploit the hormone level in the pubescent child and generally put enough positive attention, gifts, and pleasurable, non-painful sexual acts with the younger boy to make the sex seem not abusive. Taking gifts from the “friend” makes it like a bribe. Sex is the price to pay for having this person in the boy’s life. By accepting the gifts, the boy is obligated and in a way is being paid for services rendered. Further, his inability to break away from the relationship or tell someone is “proof” that he was complicit in the acts and likely adds to the sexual orientation confusion he may be experiencing.



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#129436 - 10/18/04 08:02 PM Re: Begging for answers, Its long but please, please read. Thank you
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Maladin,

you don't have to look any further than this forum to see the pain and hurt of boys, and how it carries the hurt way into the future.
Boys' are a lot more vulnerable mentally to deal with this sort of thing because of expectancies of peers to be strong.

Boys' don't cry! Hell, they do, I did for years. If kids ask for sex from adults, the adult should refuse out of respect of the child growing up disturbed.

All kids have enough to put up with just getting through to adulthood, whatever they dabble with among their peers, is up to them.

It is up to adults to behave in a positive nurturing role to children.

Cast in a nutshell, if you agree to having sex with a kid, the kid will almost certainly think it is alright for him/herself to do, when they are older, the cycle goes on.

Think we need to take a lesson here from the animal kingdom, they can sure give us some tips on rearing their young.

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#129437 - 10/18/04 09:00 PM Re: Begging for answers, Its long but please, please read. Thank you
blacken Offline
Chatroom Moderator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 08/13/01
Posts: 1212
Loc: Northern Ohio
Malidin41,

Please do not be offended by my tone, as I am rather straight forward.

Just because you thought this up and it sounds plausible to you, does Not mean you are correct.

Sex between children and adults is harmful to the child. Period. Its not because society say it is.

Even when children agree and seek out the sexual contact of the adult, it is still abuse.

Even when the contact has been explained to the child, with all the societal taboos, legal dangers, and potential risks of physical/mental/emotional harm, & the child agrees to the sex, it is still abuse.

Just because you think the child understands, and the child thinks he/she understands, neither of you really do.

And for those few children among millions that are now grown up, that didn’t think it was, abuse, they just haven't come to terms with it yet. You an Not used One example to disqualify the millions of terribly destructive acts of abuse.

The perps, "are people just like you and I". Is such bull. You are using flawed logical by the ton in your post. The terrorist of 911, are just like you also? Come on, wake up to reality. There are fundamental difference here.
And finding & using One persons definition of sexual abuse to support your argument, is absurd.

Washing wastes off a babies genitals is not abusive. If your using your mouth to clean it, yes. Or you are masturbating while cleaning the baby, of course its abusive. These are common sense issues here.

---------
I recommend you read two books by Mike Lew at the same time, Victims No Longer, & Leaping Up the Mountain.

_________________________
Everyone is a genius! If you were to judge a fish, by its ability to climb a tree,
it would think it was stupid all of it's life.
~Albert Einstein

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#129438 - 10/18/04 09:52 PM Re: Begging for answers, Its long but please, please read. Thank you
kolisha54 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/02/03
Posts: 475
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Sorry, Guys, but I am not sure this is "Off Topic" at all!

As a matter of fact, I would think it prudent to post a STRONG TRIGGER WARNING on it!

The facet that I find more disturbing than I can tell you is the insidious sub-text that children can somehow be "seductive."

Sorry, Maladin, if I am mis-interpreting you, but ya know what? This is BULL$#^&! A CHILD has ABSOLUTELY *NO* means of "CONSENT" to a sexual act!!! PERIOD!!!! We are talking about CHILDREN!!! CHILDREN!!!

Sorry if I am being "over-the-top:" NO - I am NOT sorry! What I am sorry about is the intense mourning that I must endure because the love of my life had no way to REFUSE to have sex with some smarmy "loving" OFFENDER/CRIMINAL when my Beloved was only a BOY! A CHILD! A DEFENSELESS *CHILD*!

Just the IDEA that you could voice the opinion HERE on MS that these despicable CREEPS could be "JUST LIKE THE REST OF US??????" CAN I REALLY BE READING THIS???? And your supposedly "scientific" tone of "inquiry" makes ME feel violated - as if we (you & I) have just been "playing doctor!!!"

I think I have been around this Board long enough for people to have gotten to know me pretty damned well: I am FAR from a hot head. But as an adult female rape survivor, I must tell you - even if you had the BEST of "innocent" intentions, your post is, at BEST, insensitive and hurtful. PLEASE have more REAL *LOVE* & respect for your Brothers!!!

_________________________
If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, what am I? If not now... when? --Hillel

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#129439 - 10/18/04 10:04 PM Re: Begging for answers, Its long but please, please read. Thank you
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Maladin
"SEXUAL ABUSE"

Two words, sexual and abuse.

Let's take 'sexual'. Children are sexual, they wonder what their body parts do, boys wonder why they 'get hard'. And kids will always do the 'show you mine if you'll show me yours' game with their friends.
I did, and it wasn't in any way abusive or affecting, whether it was with a boy or girl.
I have no fantasies of those incidents, but I'm plagued with fantasies about the sex that was forced upon me a very few years later.

Children need to experience their sexual side, of that I have no doubt. But they need to do it at their own pace and more importantly at their intellectual level.
The major mistake pedophiles make when they try to justify their desires ( and it is THEIR desires we're talking about ) is bestowing adult levels of cognitive behaviour onto the children. That way they believe they can fool other people into thinking that the children are capable of rational decisions regarding entering into a 'willing' relationship.
They seek to confuse people with smooth sounding pseudo-psychological talk; it's nothing more than smoke and mirrors trickery.

What they are actually doing is seeking to justify "ABUSE"
Abuse is, for me anyway, the most potent word in 'sexual abuse'.
Sexual and sex are good words that have wonderful connotations. Firstly we continue the species via sex, but it's also immensly pleasurable.
We talk of sex between partners as "making love". Even the solo act of masturbation is pleasurable; as most children discover - for themselves.

Think of "abuse" though, and can it be attached to ANYTHING good? No it can't. It lies in the Thesaurus alongside words such as "misuse, ill treat, threat, upbraid, defame, debauch and deceive". It's the right word for the job, which frightens the apologists.

Can it be right for children to skinny dip with adults or be in the room naked with adults?
We'd ALL like to think this was possible, but in the real world we know better than most that it never will be possible.

How many people have lived with, loved, befriended, worked alongside and known in some way people that eventually been exposed as perp's? Those people might have trusted those perp's with their lives before they were found out.
Perp's live with 'it' inside their heads, they don't let it be known that they maybe fantasize about sex with kids.
My fantasy of having sex with men became a reality no matter how I fought it on my own. It took years of intensive therapy and a deep desire by me to overcome it.
What chance has someone who fantasizes about kids got?
My guess is, "about the same chances I had."
If I had children I would NEVER allow them to be naked in front of anyone other that myself and my wife. No matter how well I thought I knew someone else I don't know for sure what they are taking away with them in their minds. And the thought of someone I knew using a child of mine as a fantasy is sickening.

Given that, I don't think it's unreasonable to accept that society MUST take on the responsibilities. "We" ( society ) must create a climate that doesn't fuel fantasies, we must take precautions to ensure 'they' don't get the opportunities to abuse children.
Does that impinge upon the childs freedom of choice? yes of course it does. But do we give a child a motorcycle or a shotgun to play with as they wish?
No, "we" also have to accept that many of the childs choices have to be made by us. Again, in a perfect world the parents do that. But in the real world society must be prepared to assume that role.

The 'risk' of the child being affected by this level of control is I belive "zero" - IF done in a caring way. But even done badly it's better than the 'monkey-loaded gun' scenario of giving them free rein over their wishes.
Does it stunt or otherwise alter their development? Again, if done in a caring way, no it doesn't. And 'a caring way' would include all necessary sex education at appropriate times.
And if the parents can't / won't provide the basic needs of the child and ensure they learn about sex and their sexuality in an appropriate manner then schools should, or the social services network.

It should NEVER be done by ANY kind of initiation into sexual behaviour by anyone who is in a position of trust or power over the child.

That's sexual abuse. Pure and simple.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#129440 - 10/18/04 10:45 PM Re: Begging for answers, Its long but please, please read. Thank you
SAR Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 3310
Loc: USA
Malidin,

You are talking about two very different stages in the lives of children. At first you say you are mainly talking about older kids who can consent to sexual activity. Then you go on to talk about being read to in the tub or sleeping in the bed with a parent. I don't know any teens, or for that matter any nine or ten year olds, who would rather not bathe alone. And while I always let my kids fall asleep in our bed if they came in the middle of the night with a bad dream or something, no one was ever naked, I carried them back to their own beds when they fell asleep, and they stopped that all on their own before they were four or five.

Children need to feel loved and cared for in an ENTIRELY NONSEXUAL way. Part of this means feeling comfortable with their own bodies, but phoster is right, as a parent you teach your kids that there are acceptable and unacceptable places for nudity, bathroom talk, questions about sex, etc. If the children don't get this need met, it is always and only the fault of the adult. Children need to be bathed and fed also-- if a child said, yes, I know that without washing up every day I will get dirty and smelly and sick, would it be okay to let the child not bathe? Or not eat?


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#129441 - 10/19/04 01:27 AM Re: Begging for answers, Its long but please, please read. Thank you
heart Offline
Member

Registered: 08/14/04
Posts: 48
Loc: UK
I am not sure if I am feeling angry, disturbed or perplexed after reading the first thread of this post. I am just going to jot down what is running through my head rather than going to bed and ruminate on all this.

I remember on a course for counsellors of sexual abuse seeing drawings done by kids who had been sexually abused by adults and the drawings depicted monsters and it shocked me because I had done similar drawings but instead I had done them in my adult life. The adults who abused me when I was a child are and will always be monsters to my inner child, and they are any odd human being to me as an adult.

I get angry when people try to "de-monsterize" perps. Once someone has intentionally killed another human being they become a murderer for the rest of their lives. Do relatives of someone who has been murdered debate whether the murderer should be seen as a murderer or not?

I can only consent to something I understand or know about, when I was abused at age 9 by an adult I had no concept of sex, he did, he had power and knowledge I did not have, he had choices I did not have.

An act of sexual abuse is done by intent not by mistake. Cleaning a child's genitals is an act of care, rubbing the child's genitals with a sexual intent is abuse.


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#129442 - 10/19/04 07:48 AM Re: Begging for answers, Its long but please, please read. Thank you
Leosha Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 3614
Loc: Right here
Malidin,

I am responding to this, not as someone who finds this to be part of the mores of society, but from my own thinking and point of view.

You answered all of your questions about sexual contact with children, in one simple statement:

2. Children do not have the mental capacity to make an appropriate decision on this matter.

Period. End of story. End of questions.

Oh, and as for predators and child molesters (I don't care what f*cking name they are using, what euphamisms to make what they do less unacceptable, they are predators) being 'just like us'? NO F**KING WAY! Yes, they are carbon-based life forms. Yes, they require oxygen to breathe (such a shame, there). But just like us? NO. Totally unacceptable idea in my mind.

Yes, I am narrowminded and a jackass in my thoughts about this. I don't care. They won't change.

leosha

_________________________
Avatar photo in memory of my younger brother Makar.

"Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted."~~~Martin Luther King Jr., 1963

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#129443 - 10/19/04 08:25 AM Re: Begging for answers, Its long but please, please read. Thank you
forlauren Offline
Member

Registered: 10/11/04
Posts: 63
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
People, people. This Malidin41 is a duck like Andrew said. Child molestation is RAMPANT in nudist colonies - duh! I don't know if his story is even real because I've read some of the NAMBLA manifesto & he could be cutting and pasting. Could be in heavy denial. Just hope this poor sick kid from Utah isn't seeing some unqualified uneducated government shrink of some kind ....ugh. Whatever. There are people on this earth who are without empathy, beyond rehabilitation. We must keep our children safe.


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#129444 - 10/19/04 08:35 AM Re: Begging for answers, Its long but please, please read. Thank you
forlauren Offline
Member

Registered: 10/11/04
Posts: 63
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
so tell me, malidin, is child sexual abuse rampant in the mormon comminuty or what? maybe that's what needs to get ripped apart next, after the catholic church. Ohhhh the guilt and the sin and the delicious self loathing and flagellation....pathetic.


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#129445 - 10/19/04 11:55 PM Re: Begging for answers, Its long but please, please read. Thank you
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
This topic is raising some strong feelings, but I hope it doesn't descend into name calling and ranting.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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