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#129436 - 10/18/04 08:02 PM Re: Begging for answers, Its long but please, please read. Thank you
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Maladin,

you don't have to look any further than this forum to see the pain and hurt of boys, and how it carries the hurt way into the future.
Boys' are a lot more vulnerable mentally to deal with this sort of thing because of expectancies of peers to be strong.

Boys' don't cry! Hell, they do, I did for years. If kids ask for sex from adults, the adult should refuse out of respect of the child growing up disturbed.

All kids have enough to put up with just getting through to adulthood, whatever they dabble with among their peers, is up to them.

It is up to adults to behave in a positive nurturing role to children.

Cast in a nutshell, if you agree to having sex with a kid, the kid will almost certainly think it is alright for him/herself to do, when they are older, the cycle goes on.

Think we need to take a lesson here from the animal kingdom, they can sure give us some tips on rearing their young.

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#129437 - 10/18/04 09:00 PM Re: Begging for answers, Its long but please, please read. Thank you
blacken Offline
Chatroom Moderator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 08/13/01
Posts: 1223
Loc: Northern Ohio
Malidin41,

Please do not be offended by my tone, as I am rather straight forward.

Just because you thought this up and it sounds plausible to you, does Not mean you are correct.

Sex between children and adults is harmful to the child. Period. Its not because society say it is.

Even when children agree and seek out the sexual contact of the adult, it is still abuse.

Even when the contact has been explained to the child, with all the societal taboos, legal dangers, and potential risks of physical/mental/emotional harm, & the child agrees to the sex, it is still abuse.

Just because you think the child understands, and the child thinks he/she understands, neither of you really do.

And for those few children among millions that are now grown up, that didnít think it was, abuse, they just haven't come to terms with it yet. You an Not used One example to disqualify the millions of terribly destructive acts of abuse.

The perps, "are people just like you and I". Is such bull. You are using flawed logical by the ton in your post. The terrorist of 911, are just like you also? Come on, wake up to reality. There are fundamental difference here.
And finding & using One persons definition of sexual abuse to support your argument, is absurd.

Washing wastes off a babies genitals is not abusive. If your using your mouth to clean it, yes. Or you are masturbating while cleaning the baby, of course its abusive. These are common sense issues here.

---------
I recommend you read two books by Mike Lew at the same time, Victims No Longer, & Leaping Up the Mountain.

_________________________
Everyone is a genius! If you were to judge a fish, by its ability to climb a tree,
it would think it was stupid all of it's life.
~Albert Einstein

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#129438 - 10/18/04 09:52 PM Re: Begging for answers, Its long but please, please read. Thank you
kolisha54 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/02/03
Posts: 475
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Sorry, Guys, but I am not sure this is "Off Topic" at all!

As a matter of fact, I would think it prudent to post a STRONG TRIGGER WARNING on it!

The facet that I find more disturbing than I can tell you is the insidious sub-text that children can somehow be "seductive."

Sorry, Maladin, if I am mis-interpreting you, but ya know what? This is BULL$#^&! A CHILD has ABSOLUTELY *NO* means of "CONSENT" to a sexual act!!! PERIOD!!!! We are talking about CHILDREN!!! CHILDREN!!!

Sorry if I am being "over-the-top:" NO - I am NOT sorry! What I am sorry about is the intense mourning that I must endure because the love of my life had no way to REFUSE to have sex with some smarmy "loving" OFFENDER/CRIMINAL when my Beloved was only a BOY! A CHILD! A DEFENSELESS *CHILD*!

Just the IDEA that you could voice the opinion HERE on MS that these despicable CREEPS could be "JUST LIKE THE REST OF US??????" CAN I REALLY BE READING THIS???? And your supposedly "scientific" tone of "inquiry" makes ME feel violated - as if we (you & I) have just been "playing doctor!!!"

I think I have been around this Board long enough for people to have gotten to know me pretty damned well: I am FAR from a hot head. But as an adult female rape survivor, I must tell you - even if you had the BEST of "innocent" intentions, your post is, at BEST, insensitive and hurtful. PLEASE have more REAL *LOVE* & respect for your Brothers!!!

_________________________
If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, what am I? If not now... when? --Hillel

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#129439 - 10/18/04 10:04 PM Re: Begging for answers, Its long but please, please read. Thank you
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Maladin
"SEXUAL ABUSE"

Two words, sexual and abuse.

Let's take 'sexual'. Children are sexual, they wonder what their body parts do, boys wonder why they 'get hard'. And kids will always do the 'show you mine if you'll show me yours' game with their friends.
I did, and it wasn't in any way abusive or affecting, whether it was with a boy or girl.
I have no fantasies of those incidents, but I'm plagued with fantasies about the sex that was forced upon me a very few years later.

Children need to experience their sexual side, of that I have no doubt. But they need to do it at their own pace and more importantly at their intellectual level.
The major mistake pedophiles make when they try to justify their desires ( and it is THEIR desires we're talking about ) is bestowing adult levels of cognitive behaviour onto the children. That way they believe they can fool other people into thinking that the children are capable of rational decisions regarding entering into a 'willing' relationship.
They seek to confuse people with smooth sounding pseudo-psychological talk; it's nothing more than smoke and mirrors trickery.

What they are actually doing is seeking to justify "ABUSE"
Abuse is, for me anyway, the most potent word in 'sexual abuse'.
Sexual and sex are good words that have wonderful connotations. Firstly we continue the species via sex, but it's also immensly pleasurable.
We talk of sex between partners as "making love". Even the solo act of masturbation is pleasurable; as most children discover - for themselves.

Think of "abuse" though, and can it be attached to ANYTHING good? No it can't. It lies in the Thesaurus alongside words such as "misuse, ill treat, threat, upbraid, defame, debauch and deceive". It's the right word for the job, which frightens the apologists.

Can it be right for children to skinny dip with adults or be in the room naked with adults?
We'd ALL like to think this was possible, but in the real world we know better than most that it never will be possible.

How many people have lived with, loved, befriended, worked alongside and known in some way people that eventually been exposed as perp's? Those people might have trusted those perp's with their lives before they were found out.
Perp's live with 'it' inside their heads, they don't let it be known that they maybe fantasize about sex with kids.
My fantasy of having sex with men became a reality no matter how I fought it on my own. It took years of intensive therapy and a deep desire by me to overcome it.
What chance has someone who fantasizes about kids got?
My guess is, "about the same chances I had."
If I had children I would NEVER allow them to be naked in front of anyone other that myself and my wife. No matter how well I thought I knew someone else I don't know for sure what they are taking away with them in their minds. And the thought of someone I knew using a child of mine as a fantasy is sickening.

Given that, I don't think it's unreasonable to accept that society MUST take on the responsibilities. "We" ( society ) must create a climate that doesn't fuel fantasies, we must take precautions to ensure 'they' don't get the opportunities to abuse children.
Does that impinge upon the childs freedom of choice? yes of course it does. But do we give a child a motorcycle or a shotgun to play with as they wish?
No, "we" also have to accept that many of the childs choices have to be made by us. Again, in a perfect world the parents do that. But in the real world society must be prepared to assume that role.

The 'risk' of the child being affected by this level of control is I belive "zero" - IF done in a caring way. But even done badly it's better than the 'monkey-loaded gun' scenario of giving them free rein over their wishes.
Does it stunt or otherwise alter their development? Again, if done in a caring way, no it doesn't. And 'a caring way' would include all necessary sex education at appropriate times.
And if the parents can't / won't provide the basic needs of the child and ensure they learn about sex and their sexuality in an appropriate manner then schools should, or the social services network.

It should NEVER be done by ANY kind of initiation into sexual behaviour by anyone who is in a position of trust or power over the child.

That's sexual abuse. Pure and simple.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#129440 - 10/18/04 10:45 PM Re: Begging for answers, Its long but please, please read. Thank you
SAR Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 3310
Loc: USA
Malidin,

You are talking about two very different stages in the lives of children. At first you say you are mainly talking about older kids who can consent to sexual activity. Then you go on to talk about being read to in the tub or sleeping in the bed with a parent. I don't know any teens, or for that matter any nine or ten year olds, who would rather not bathe alone. And while I always let my kids fall asleep in our bed if they came in the middle of the night with a bad dream or something, no one was ever naked, I carried them back to their own beds when they fell asleep, and they stopped that all on their own before they were four or five.

Children need to feel loved and cared for in an ENTIRELY NONSEXUAL way. Part of this means feeling comfortable with their own bodies, but phoster is right, as a parent you teach your kids that there are acceptable and unacceptable places for nudity, bathroom talk, questions about sex, etc. If the children don't get this need met, it is always and only the fault of the adult. Children need to be bathed and fed also-- if a child said, yes, I know that without washing up every day I will get dirty and smelly and sick, would it be okay to let the child not bathe? Or not eat?


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#129441 - 10/19/04 01:27 AM Re: Begging for answers, Its long but please, please read. Thank you
heart Offline
Member

Registered: 08/14/04
Posts: 48
Loc: UK
I am not sure if I am feeling angry, disturbed or perplexed after reading the first thread of this post. I am just going to jot down what is running through my head rather than going to bed and ruminate on all this.

I remember on a course for counsellors of sexual abuse seeing drawings done by kids who had been sexually abused by adults and the drawings depicted monsters and it shocked me because I had done similar drawings but instead I had done them in my adult life. The adults who abused me when I was a child are and will always be monsters to my inner child, and they are any odd human being to me as an adult.

I get angry when people try to "de-monsterize" perps. Once someone has intentionally killed another human being they become a murderer for the rest of their lives. Do relatives of someone who has been murdered debate whether the murderer should be seen as a murderer or not?

I can only consent to something I understand or know about, when I was abused at age 9 by an adult I had no concept of sex, he did, he had power and knowledge I did not have, he had choices I did not have.

An act of sexual abuse is done by intent not by mistake. Cleaning a child's genitals is an act of care, rubbing the child's genitals with a sexual intent is abuse.


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#129442 - 10/19/04 07:48 AM Re: Begging for answers, Its long but please, please read. Thank you
Leosha Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 3614
Loc: Right here
Malidin,

I am responding to this, not as someone who finds this to be part of the mores of society, but from my own thinking and point of view.

You answered all of your questions about sexual contact with children, in one simple statement:

2. Children do not have the mental capacity to make an appropriate decision on this matter.

Period. End of story. End of questions.

Oh, and as for predators and child molesters (I don't care what f*cking name they are using, what euphamisms to make what they do less unacceptable, they are predators) being 'just like us'? NO F**KING WAY! Yes, they are carbon-based life forms. Yes, they require oxygen to breathe (such a shame, there). But just like us? NO. Totally unacceptable idea in my mind.

Yes, I am narrowminded and a jackass in my thoughts about this. I don't care. They won't change.

leosha

_________________________
Avatar photo in memory of my younger brother Makar.

"Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted."~~~Martin Luther King Jr., 1963

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#129443 - 10/19/04 08:25 AM Re: Begging for answers, Its long but please, please read. Thank you
forlauren Offline
Member

Registered: 10/11/04
Posts: 63
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
People, people. This Malidin41 is a duck like Andrew said. Child molestation is RAMPANT in nudist colonies - duh! I don't know if his story is even real because I've read some of the NAMBLA manifesto & he could be cutting and pasting. Could be in heavy denial. Just hope this poor sick kid from Utah isn't seeing some unqualified uneducated government shrink of some kind ....ugh. Whatever. There are people on this earth who are without empathy, beyond rehabilitation. We must keep our children safe.


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#129444 - 10/19/04 08:35 AM Re: Begging for answers, Its long but please, please read. Thank you
forlauren Offline
Member

Registered: 10/11/04
Posts: 63
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
so tell me, malidin, is child sexual abuse rampant in the mormon comminuty or what? maybe that's what needs to get ripped apart next, after the catholic church. Ohhhh the guilt and the sin and the delicious self loathing and flagellation....pathetic.


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#129445 - 10/19/04 11:55 PM Re: Begging for answers, Its long but please, please read. Thank you
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
This topic is raising some strong feelings, but I hope it doesn't descend into name calling and ranting.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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