Newest Members
RepressedMem, jet_step, JimHouston42, GKB, MorganWut
12468 Registered Users
Today's Birthdays
AndyP (48), Gaius (50), JoziSA (52), mmafan66 (48), nltsaved (36), RMM (52), Steve63 (51), zenboy (51)
Who's Online
7 registered (Johnny777, Rich1967, JW1230, lapchinj, 2 invisible), 27 Guests and 5 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
12468 Members
74 Forums
64031 Topics
446842 Posts

Max Online: 418 @ 07/02/12 07:29 AM
Twitter
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#12855 - 04/30/03 01:07 AM The shame that I harbor...
Sleepy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 288
Loc: Arizona, USA
Last Friday I had a really good session with my T. I opened up and addressed some issues that I had previously only skimmed over. I was really too embarrassed and ashamed to talk about them. But after talking about them I felt incredibly good. However, today I had an interesting incident that I need to talk about and it is closely related to my last session. This all involves my feelings of shame.

What I finally opened up about was my desire to cross-dress. Let me clear this up a little bit: When I was between 5-7 my sister had used me as her surrogate sex partner. Unlike many here I truly enjoyed my encounters. Sometime before my tenth birthday she had finally threw me to the side and rejected any of my advances. Those experiences gave me a taste of what an orgasm was and it left me with a strong desire for more. The only way I could possibly recreate the ecstasy was to snoop through her underwear drawer and absorb her essence. It eventually led to me trying on her underwear on a regular basis. It was probably a daily occurrence in my puberty years and eventually waned in my late teen years. I loved doing it. I truly did, but it was my deep, dark secret that I would never tell.

One time when I was around 10 I decided to take a piece of her underwear into my room so that I could enjoy it later that night. Unfortunately my mother found it. I remember sitting in the living room with my father. My mother came around the corner with it draped around her index finger and peered at me and asked, "What is this?", in a condescending way. Nothing more was said but the non-verbal communication was loud and clear. Whether she intended it or not, I felt like she was telling me that I was a horrible and despicable person for doing it. My father said nothing to me, like usual.

The embarrassment was horrible! I welled up with shame and all I wanted to do was run away. I vowed that I would never let myself go through that again. I was quite successful at that, however, that meant that I would shun all sexual relationships and development. Certainly there were other outside factors involved in my withdrawal but this was unfortunate nonetheless.

So today I was sitting with my father inside his truck at a UPS Store while waiting for a friend to arrive. The woman inside the store was absolutely beautiful and all I wanted to do was to be close to her. Unfortunately my father's presence made me feel so guilty for feeling this. He was like a cancer and all I wanted to do was punch him (figuratively, of course) and ask him why he was doing this to me. He did and said nothing but in that instant I hated him because I could fully see how the intense shame has locked me in place and prevented me from living. Ugg…It's horrible. (Please understand that I do love my dad despite much of what I say.)

I hope this didn't become too drawn out but I needed to get this off my chest.
Thanks for listening,
Mike

_________________________
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end."
--Ursula K. Le Guin

"Mental health is a commitment to reality at all times."
--M. Scott Peck

Top
#12856 - 04/30/03 01:14 AM Re: The shame that I harbor...
MrDon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/08/01
Posts: 957
Loc: Deltona, FL
Glad you shared it because it made perfect sense to me in many ways...

Don

_________________________
In order to journey to new worlds, we must first be willing to lose site of the shore.

The Mind Body Thoughts Blog
http://mindbodythoughts.blogspot.com/

Check out my relaxing piano music from the heart!
http://www.donshetterly.com

Top
#12857 - 04/30/03 01:31 AM Re: The shame that I harbor...
RickL Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 84
Loc: Oregon
Mike,

When survivors like yourself have the courage to share something that touches their core of shame, it helps me to face my own shame.

I have lots of shame from my growing up. Mostly of feeling so "less than" other boys. I am now understanding that the intensely terrorizing programming of my dad caused me to be afraid of all boys when I was growing up. That is profoundly shameful for me, but the good news is the clarity of understanding I'm just coming to about it.

The other huge feeling of shame I have has to do with what turned me on sexually as an early adolescent. In fact, I'm too ashamed to share it here. I have shared it with only my therapist, and now, one other survivor friend. It was terrifiying to tell him about it. But it also helped to diffuse it.

So bravo, Mike. You set a great example for me.

Rick


Top
#12858 - 04/30/03 01:35 AM Re: The shame that I harbor...
RJD Offline
Member

Registered: 02/18/01
Posts: 326
Loc: jefferson City, Mo,usa
WOW SLEEPY,
It made perfect sense to me too. It also resonates in me and I'm not quite sure why. I admire your courage here and the painful honesty you speak with. I can appreciate the depth of your painful shame. Thank you for the gift.


Top
#12859 - 04/30/03 01:43 AM Re: The shame that I harbor...
Roy Riverton Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 2
Loc: Oregon
Sleepy,
I related to a lot of what you said in your post. Strange how a persons response to a similar situation can result in such a different out come.
I was sexually abused by my mother. She wore me down to the point that I learned to enjoy having sex with her. That all happened when I was 4-6 years old.
When I was 9 years old I got caught looking at Playboy magazines. I was so aroused at those pictures. I couldn't get enough of looking at them. My brother told on me in front of the whole family. My mother's response did me in. She made me feel so guilty and ashamed. It was the tone in her voice and the look in her eyes. I felt that if I ever wanted to be forgiven of God for what I had done that I could never, ever have a sexual thought about women. From that time on I felt no sexual feelings towards women and began to be attracted to men. It all came from my mother.
So, Sleepy--I have a couple of questions for you. (1) Your sister sexually abused you--who sexually abused your sister? And (2) When you were confronted for having your sisters underwear in your room why didn't your Dad say anything? I get the feeling he doesn't say much in your life.
Hang in there Sleepy and good luck to you.
Roy Riverton

_________________________
Roy Riverton

Top
#12860 - 04/30/03 07:45 AM Re: The shame that I harbor...
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Mike:

What you shared hits to my heart even more now than it would have just a few weeks ago. That's when some seemingly minor details of abuse memories recovered earlier made clear to me what I'd for years known but buried deep down along with all the abuse: My mother wanted me all to herself, and as I got older she was more & more
"grooming" me to be gay when I grew up, becuz she couldn't stand the thot of another woman having me

She would take me to nudist colonies or have her watch me having sex with men, even join in, and encourage me to look at/be with the men. But her attempt backfired when at age 11 she sold me to a gay couple who took me to their apartment & raped me. I was getting big & strong enuf to rebel against her, and now I was motivated enuf. I did.

Soon after a brief sexual identity struggle right after the rape, she gave up on me & put me in a children's home, becuz I was & became more heterosexual than ever.

What the hell did the bitch expect, after she overexposed me to her feminine sexuality for all of the most formative years of my life & then some?!

The point Mike my brother is that I've finally in the last few weeks started opening up about something I'd barely touched on with anybody before, and it's making me realize more than ever (as if we needed more, right?!) why I'm so sexually hung-up. And ashamed.

It's not a matter of whether being gay is right or wrong, but whether it was right or wrong for me
For me it was wrong becuz I was not, obviously.

What I'm ashamed of is the struggles I had with it
and that sometimes becuz of my somewhat feminine characteristics (these were all I ever saw) people
thot I was if not gay than at least somewhat effeminate & certainly not much of a boy/man. And I'm ashamed of being perceived as a mama's boy & a motherf*ck&r! \:o

Mike there is a beautiful woman who's been in my store window for over 23 years. I want so much to be intimate with her. But my mother is sitting beside me saying you can't do that I'm the only woman who can ever have you. My father sits there silently, out there somewhere, his silent message is "you're not man enuf!"

I've recently shared some of this with a survivor friend when he visited, and also via email. Talked about it a little with my wife. My T & I, we really need to get into this, tomorrow.

Dammit I have nothing to be ashamed of! This is about what my mother & others did & tried to do to me as a helpless child.

And dammit brother Mike you have nothing to be ashamed of either, tho I know the feelings are hard to just shuck off. This is about what your older sister, and later your parents, did to you, as a helpless child.

My friend I'm glad you're getting this out with your T. Thanks for getting it out here too. Hope it helps you cause it's sure helping me.

BTW you're new avatar icon is cool, as was the old one. I notice lots of people getting & changing those lately. A trend is in the air I guess.

Take care Mike my brother

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

Top
#12861 - 04/30/03 08:14 AM Re: The shame that I harbor...
zadok1 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/05/02
Posts: 188
Loc: Ohio
Shame and guilt are two things that drive many problems in life. In fact, the texts therapists are taught from outline them that way. I can certainly relate, because shame and guilt drove me for years.

After I was molested, we moved to a new home where I made friends with a neighbor girl. After we got close enough, I showed her the games I had played with my abuser. Donít get me wrong, I knew I shouldnít be doing these sexual things, but I knew they felt good, so I rationalized that it was okay to show her. For a month or so we played house, including undressing and lying together. We didnít know enough to actually have intercourse, but did oral and the like. It ended when my mom caught us. Like your case, there was actually very little said, and I think that made me feel worse. I remember being at our neighborís. My brother and the neighborís son were in the back playing, and I was standing in the hallway. I remember overhearing as my mom told our neighbor about it. Iíll never forget the look of absolute horror on her face, and I certainly wonít forget how ashamed of myself I was.

Funny how sex and shame got so mixed up for me along the way. Cross-dressing seems almost mild compared to things I got into. In fact that was one thing I never felt particularly bad about. There was a brief period between partners where I was thrill seeking. I remember going off into the woods near our home to strip and streak, when I came across a rubbish heap and a bag of womenís clothes. I couldnít resist putting them on, and it was a big rush. I never go caught, and was never real proud of doing it, but I did.

A few here know how much worse it got, but I am not comfortable talking about it all here. Letís just say, I know shame, and applaud you for sharing it. I felt it important to let you know that you arenít alone. We have all done things we are ashamed of.

_________________________
The world is a dangerous place, not because of those that are evil, but because of those who do nothing about them- Albert Einstein

Top
#12862 - 04/30/03 10:47 AM Re: The shame that I harbor...
Sleepy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 288
Loc: Arizona, USA
Gosh, I don't know how to express my sense of relief for all of your wonderful reponses. My heart was pounding a little as I was opening the thread. But I feel pretty good right now. Thank you all so, so, so much.

I must run to work right now but I'll continue my thoughts later today.
Thanks again,
mike

_________________________
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end."
--Ursula K. Le Guin

"Mental health is a commitment to reality at all times."
--M. Scott Peck

Top
#12863 - 04/30/03 12:01 PM Re: The shame that I harbor...
randy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/24/02
Posts: 30
Loc: Pittsburgh, Pa
Hiya Sleepy,
You may have misread your parents response's too your sisters articles. Your Dad may have been thinking that his son was hell of a stud for bagging a young lady. Your parents might not have realized what the intent of the panties was. Many hetrosexual "normal" boys have a thing for girls panties. For example college boys pull the old pantie raids. It is because girls underware is intended to be more senual than mens.
Their lack of verbal response to you as to what they thought is the real negligence here.
You were allowed to internalize the whole deal,
and children rarely read adults emotions well.
Silence is a real killer to a young mind that has already been scarred.


Top
#12864 - 04/30/03 05:08 PM Re: The shame that I harbor...
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Quote:
I was sexually abused by my mother. She wore me down to the point that I learned to enjoy having sex with her. That all happened when I was 4-6 years old.
Roy tragically I relate. My mother, sometimes with others joining in, incested me from ages 2 (or less) till 11. She was virtually always sexual with me, looking, touching, going around the apartment nude. I got to liking it & hated myself all the more for it. Till I just buried what I couldn't bear deep down inside myself.

Quote:
When I was 9 years old I got caught looking at Playboy magazines. I was so aroused at those pictures. I couldn't get enough of looking at them. My brother told on me in front of the whole family. My mother's response did me in. She made me feel so guilty and ashamed. It was the tone in her voice and the look in her eyes.
Roy I was sex addicted by the time I was 9 or 10; I'd already had consensual sex with one girl my age, and would go into the backs of bookstores & masturbate to porn mags.

But my first porn mag was a photo album of my mother. The narcisstic bitch had to be first in everything, especially me.[img]http://jm.g.free.fr/smileys/angryfire.gif
[/img] She encouraged it.

Quote:
I felt that if I ever wanted to be forgiven of God for what I had done that I could never, ever have a sexual thought about women. From that time on I felt no sexual feelings towards women and began to be attracted to men. It all came from my mother.
Damn, Roy. \:\(

Sometimes it seemed all I could have was sexual thots about women. Thanks mother. I still can barely be intimate in any way with anyone, even with my wonderful wife.

Roy, may God help us overcome the guilt & shame that is not ours but our mothers'.

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

Top
#12865 - 05/01/03 12:26 AM Re: The shame that I harbor...
Sleepy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 288
Loc: Arizona, USA
I've been thinking about this thread all day. After reading all these great replies and receiving much needed validation, I came to the conclusion that I need to make a statement.

Hear ye, hear ye:
From this day forth I will no longer live my life in terms of the shame that others, whether intentional or not, have placed on me. I will again take risks and live my life. I may stumble but I will pick myself up and continue forward. And I will use all available resources to help me when I do stumble.

Okay, I needed to get that out of my system.

_________________________
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end."
--Ursula K. Le Guin

"Mental health is a commitment to reality at all times."
--M. Scott Peck

Top
#12866 - 05/01/03 12:52 AM Re: The shame that I harbor...
Sleepy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 288
Loc: Arizona, USA
With that said, there are some very interesting comments that have made me think hard about. I'm very glad that everyone posted because it made me feel much less alone and it validated much of my concerns.

Randy,
I don't think you realize how much your post made me think. For sake of simplicity I did not mention in my initial post that I did not tell my T about the incident with my parents. It was hard enought to talk about the cross dressing in the first place and I think my mind was busy enough. I kind of forgot to mention it. However, the mere fact that I may have misinterpreted my parents is a very real possibility. I truly believe that they weren't cognizant that as a child I didn't understand adult emotions very well. What else was I to do other than internalize it. And certianly I loved the sensual aspects of the underwear. I gave me a great rush.

Roy,
Your comment about the Playboys makes me remember a time when I was caught, yet again, using a vibrater when I was around 6. It was the same look as I described earlier. And, man, their lack of communication was another example of their negligence . I also have to say that too much of your story rings true for me.
As for my sister, I don't know. The question has come up many time with my friends and my T but I don't know. We're not that close. But it certainly makes you wonder. And my dad, he's a great and caring guy but emotionally removed. His mother committed suicide when he was being shiped off to Vietnam and his father died in a tragic car accident. The result was that he never dealt with his emotions. It's very sad, actually.

Jeff,
Quote:
Funny how sex and shame got so mixed up for me along the way.
It is funny, ehh? I clearly remember in elementary school that thought that it wasn't proper to have a girlfriend. Other boys had girlfriends but for me it was something I knew I shouldn't do. Unfortunatly things haven't changed. But it is a little interesting how these things got mixed up.

Okay, I'm exceptionally tired tonight. I'm very sorry if I didn't address anyone else but I'm gonna jump in bed. Thanks guys.
Mike

_________________________
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end."
--Ursula K. Le Guin

"Mental health is a commitment to reality at all times."
--M. Scott Peck

Top
#12867 - 05/01/03 03:44 PM Re: The shame that I harbor...
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Quote:
Hear ye, hear ye:
From this day forth I will no longer live my life in terms of the shame that others, whether intentional or not, have placed on me. I will again take risks and live my life. I may stumble but I will pick myself up and continue forward. And I will use all available resources to help me when I do stumble.
Mike that's worth framing!

I find this very helpful today. I just got back from unloading a shit pile on my T.
Helpful session but I'm drained.

Thanks for the good words for all of us.

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

Top
#12868 - 05/01/03 09:28 PM Re: The shame that I harbor...
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Mike:
You have come a really long way in the time I have known you and it shows the kind of determination to heal that I so respect.

Yeh live life, make mistakes and keep going. That is what all of us should do.

I am also happy that you are leaving the sick shit where it belongs. With them.

You are you and that is it. And my brother you will get nothing but support here. We are all in it together.

You are a light for the young ones to follow

Your brother wolf

Another Mike

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

Top
#12869 - 05/02/03 12:23 AM Re: The shame that I harbor...
Sleepy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 288
Loc: Arizona, USA
Vic,
I totally know what you mean by being drained after seeing your T. Sometimes it's so emotionally taxing that it leaves with nothing to spare. But usually it feels good.

Mike,
I think I'll need all the support I can get in the weeks ahead of me. After living at home for the past year I'm moving back in with my old college roommate. This is a big step for me. It scares me a little but it's something I need to do. I need to rebuild confidence in myself after it was eroded from this unexpected emotional crisis. Things are going well but I still need the support. I know I'll be enlisting everyone's help here.
Mike

_________________________
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end."
--Ursula K. Le Guin

"Mental health is a commitment to reality at all times."
--M. Scott Peck

Top
#12870 - 05/02/03 12:34 AM Re: The shame that I harbor...
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
You can count on me brother. I will be away till Sunday but I will be back then.

Just take it nice and easy

Your brother Wolf

Mike

AAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWHHHHHHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOOO

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

Top
#12871 - 05/15/03 03:33 PM Re: The shame that I harbor...
Clapton Fan Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 23
Loc: Shrewsbury, United Kingdom
Mike

"I loved doing it. I truly did, but it was my deep, dark secret that I would never tell". ;\)

Your post reminded me so much of myself and the desire to cross-dress. Like you I had a facination with my mothers clothes from a very early age. I think at the time it was the smell of my mother that I most enjoyed but as I grew older so the experimenting began as to when the sexual feeling kicked in I cannot for the life of me remember, but I can remember feeling nice "down there" and I preume I followed that nice feeling. I think my motther (as they usually do) knew what I was doing as she always talked of sexual matters in a very matter of fact way, whereas my father would turn crimson and begin to sweat profusely when asked anything to do with sex. Anyway I can remember following these nice feelings and began (at what age? I have know idea) to indulge in that wondreful pastime of masturbation, unfortunately my father warned me against this saying that I would go blind, it was doublely unfortuate when a few months later I was diagnosed with a squint in my left eye and prescribed galsses. I put my order in for a guide dog. \:D

Still back to the point. Once more I cannot remember when my interest went underground as I was being eaten alive by guilt and shame, but the pleasure derived from cross-dressing was mind blowing and very addictive. By the time that I was being abused by a group of men my dressing had gone underground completely but it was never very far from my mind. The impression I gave to the wider world was one of rebellion (street gangs during the skinhead era here in the UK, early seventies. I was a skinhead with very long hair...a football hooligan) against everything, my father especially. It was during this time of classical family dysfunctionality that the first of my abusers got his hands on me. He groomed me for a good few months and then pounced with the aid of a straight pornographic film. The most explicit pictures I had ever seen before this, where the ones in a magazine called "Health and Effecincy" (readers of this in the UK may well remember this classic publication from the mid sixties).

Things then went from bad to worse I was expelled from school after first meeting with a child psychologist for a number of months. I had lost my best freind around this time, my grandfather. I never even told the psychologist what was going on. I was kicked out of the family home so I looked to my first abuser to help which he freely gave, but at a price. I was eventually introduced to friends of his in the same biz as he. They knew a good thing when they saw it and offered their help as well. God I was so nieve its unbelieveable but booze was made available. Anyway I became addicted to alcohol in a very short space of time (usually vodka if I could nick it) and that remained with me for thirty plus years. As the AA Big Book say's I actively sought out "dark places" and befriend drinkers of the same ilk, I was homeless for a number of years and lived the life as a homeless alcoholic and sometime rent boy. My lowest point however was lying in a dosshouse drinking after shave. Im rambling so I will try keep this short.

I have been in therapy now for about eighteen months and talk quite freely about my crossdressing and Penny, my en' feme name. I would dress and get the deire to crossdress but I couldnt do it sober. The first thing for me was to put the bottle down and I managed eight years sobriety before relapsing twice last year and I have tried to dress whilst sober but it did nothing for me. My wife I hasten to add knows and has met Penny and she has even been out for a drink with her. I suppose I'm very lucky having such an understanding wife. I have given myself permission to dress if I so desire so it follows that if I stay away from that first drink I may be able to control these desires. My guilt is still there but its gradually getting better as I talk about (in group) my past dressing. I dont have to do it in secret anymore and I think that fact alone has helped deminish and blunt the desires.

"Please understand that I do love my dad despite much of what I say".

Unlike you though I have no relationship with any of my side of the family. For this I certanly feel no guilt, only relief.

Now all I have to do is do something with regard my porn addiction which makes me feel even more shame than the cross-dressing.

I hope this helps in some ways.

And all that was left was hope \:\)

Kirk


Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >


Moderator:  ModTeam, TJ jeff 

I agree that my access and use of the MaleSurvivor discussion forums and chat room is subject to the terms of this Agreement. AND the sole discretion of MaleSurvivor.
I agree that my use of MaleSurvivor resources are AT-WILL, and that my posting privileges may be terminated at any time, and for any reason by MaleSurvivor.