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#128320 - 07/28/04 10:23 AM Civil Liberties Union gone insane!
Aden Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/04
Posts: 499
This is unbelievable!

A convicted child molester served his term and was released into our community. One of his favorite pastimes since getting back in town? Hanging out in the park and watching children play.

After publicly admitting that he still has fantasies of having sex with children in the park, the city banned him from entering park grounds.

The Indiana Civil Liberties Union took up his case and the state appellate court found that the cities ban was a violation of “John Doe’s” constitutional rights.

What the hell are these lame brained SOBs thinking? By that logic it would be unconstitutional to stop a convicted terrorist from carrying a bomb onto an airplane! I am outraged!!! First, that the ICLU would even consider taking on a case like this. Defending civil rights is one thing, but to do so at such a risk to the lives of innocent children is beyond all reason. That the ICLU would actually aid in forwarding the cause of a predatory monster is an affront to all things good and decent! Second, that the court could have found an excuse to allow this freak to lurk around play grounds observing children and fantasizing sex is an abomination. All I can think is that these judges need to have their backgrounds checked and their movements monitored. Where is the sanity in this?

Aden


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#128321 - 07/28/04 11:28 AM Re: Civil Liberties Union gone insane!
Bill_1965 Offline
Chat Mod Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 1983
Loc: Flint, Michigan
The Civil Liberties Union lost it a long time ago. A noble and grand concept gone awry.

_________________________
Pain is Temporary; Quitting lasts Forever. - Lance Armstrong

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#128322 - 07/28/04 12:48 PM Re: Civil Liberties Union gone insane!
Archnut Offline
Member

Registered: 10/26/02
Posts: 343
Loc: United Kingdom
Political correctness gone mad

Archnut
"And all that was left was hope"

My Story (TRIGGERS)
http://www.waltonhop.blogspot.com


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#128323 - 07/28/04 03:40 PM Re: Civil Liberties Union gone insane!
crisispoint Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 2154
Loc: Massachusetts
To everyone,

This is REALLY hard for me to say, especially when you consider I'd cheerfully murder every frigging child rapist on the face of the planet, but I've got to reluctantly back up the ACLU on this.

Reagrdless of what this scumbag has done, regardless of the potential harm he could do, he hasn't committed a crime, and I'm willing to bet you he hasn't violated any terms of his parole. Otherwise, you can believe the bastard would be in jail right now.

It turns my stomach to say this, really. You'd think it would be really easy for me to just go along with you and say that "oh, yes, throw the sonofabitch out of the park. Lock him up in his home, castrate him at once." And it would be, except for one thing. In this day and age, when the Constitution of our country is under attack from within the government IT DESIGNS by the people who are SWORN TO DEFEND IT, people, even the worst of them, have a right to be protected by the law. Just like children do. Just like we all do.

I'm damn sure that the people who use the park know this bastard well (if they don't, use your law-protected means of making them aware), and the second he even APPROACHES a child, the police will be called and he'll be hauled off very quickly. Even if he's let go once, twice, three times, he'll get so SICK of being bothered, he'll move on.

We can't attack people on POTENTIAL threats. I'm pretty sure most people here think that racial and ethnic profiling is wrong. If it's wrong in that case, it's wrong here. I'm sorry, but it is. We can't remove someone's rights or freedoms on potential. We can only remove them when they've actually committed a crime. No matter how we feel about it, the law protects us as well as them, and the second we bend it for the true scumbags of the earth, the sooner WE will be in peril of losing our rights.

Once many years ago, two countries believed that there was a risk from ethnic and political groups living within its borders. Despite the vast majority were law-abiding patriotic citizens, these countries locked them up in prisons and camps without cause. Just on the basis of their ethnicity or political views, they were robbed of their rights, and in one case, eventually their humanity.

One, as you might have guessed, was Germany. the other, surprise, was the United States. Not once (Native Americans), not twice (Black Americans), but MANY times in our OWN history (Japanese Americans, Chinese Americans, Muslims, Jews, Gays, Irish Americans, Catholics, Eastern Europeans, Italians, Latin Americans, Anarchists, Communists, Socialists, and the list goes on).

It CAN happen here, it DID happen here, it's happening here NOW, and it WILL again if we let our own victimization dictate who is worth the protection of the law.

If I disappoint anyone here with this opinion, I'm sorry. It makes me sick to defend, even theoretically, these monsters. But freedom EVERYWHERE is imperiled when we think this way.

Peace and love,

Scot

_________________________
There are reasons I'm taking medication. They're called "other people." - Me, displaying my anti-social tendancies

fromacuriousmind.blogspot.com
malehurtandsurvive.blogspot.com

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#128324 - 07/29/04 10:44 AM Re: Civil Liberties Union gone insane!
Aden Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/04
Posts: 499
“John Doe’s” preferred park is just a block from my house. Parts of it are heavily wood ravines with hiking trails. The park itself runs behind and adjoins property of a grade school and a junior high school.

Needless to say, local parents are uncomfortable about sending their children to school. No children play in the park anymore and it is rare to see an adult walking thru. The news paper won’t print the identity of “John Doe” for his protection.

I find it interesting that we can keep a convicted robber from owning a gun, but if we try to keep a convicted pedofile from lurking in the woods behind a school we somehow run the risk of becoming a totalitarian state. Obviously this point is open to interpretation. Which suggests that it might well be the preferences of the defenders and the judges that determine the outcome.

Yes, the USA has made many mistakes in the past. As has nearly every nation on earth at any time in history. Yes, we do need checks and balances to keep our governments in line. At some point the defenders of liberty need to be reminded of what liberty really is. Society, from its very inception, has existed for the mutual protection of its members. The is the origin of the Social Contract. Society evolved to protect its members from the monsters lurking in the woods. If the protectors of liberty will not allow our government to preform even that most basic of tenets in the social contract, then that contract is void. There is no freedom in a state where fanciful interpretations of law are allowed to dominate rational response to specific threats within the community.

If the ICLU and the courts believe that our liberties are better protected by allowing a predatory pedofile to lurk in the woods behind a grade school, than by restricting the actions of a proven offender, then we are likely to find ourselves in a deeply divided society of those who desire justice, and those who worship law. The law can be made to serve any purpose by those who interpret the law.

And a recitation of the long list of American sins won't make this neighborhood any safer. But thanks for the history lesson anyway. 50 years and I haven't noticed a single advance in social tolerance. Now, I think I'll go out back and beat one of my slaves, shoot an indian, and holler insults at the queer next door. No, wait a minute, I'm the queer next door... Never mind.

Aden


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#128325 - 07/29/04 11:20 AM Re: Civil Liberties Union gone insane!
crisispoint Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 2154
Loc: Massachusetts
I knew this was going to make me unpopular.

But it's the freedoms I defend, not the scumbags who exploit them.

Aden, Ithink you know me enough to understand whose side I'm on. However, in this society, in this reality, we have to arrest people for what they've actually DONE. Not what they think or fantasize about.

MANY people have inappropriate, sometimes illegal, fantasies. Take a look at the secondary audience of "Sesame Street" and the Olsen twins for proof of that. Further on, take a look at the boom of preteen "modelling" sites on the web. WHo actually subscribes to them? Guess!

But, many of those people, as disgusting as their fantasies are, and believe me, the idea of adults having sex with children is disgusting, will NOT act on those fantasies.

Hate me as much as you want. Make fun of my ideals as much as you want. But please understand what I'm saying.

Also, there are valid reason for not printing John Doe's name and address. It's to protect people like him from people like me.

Peace and love,

Scot

_________________________
There are reasons I'm taking medication. They're called "other people." - Me, displaying my anti-social tendancies

fromacuriousmind.blogspot.com
malehurtandsurvive.blogspot.com

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#128326 - 07/29/04 11:40 AM Re: Civil Liberties Union gone insane!
Aden Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/04
Posts: 499
Scot,

I don't hate you! I just think you're wrong on this point. Civil discourse is what we are engaged in here. We have to explore our thought and feeling in order to understand them. Rational people do that without hatred or deep offense.

I love you. Now read my last post to Marc for a definition similar to what I mean about love and apply most of it to yourself. But add to it that I enjoy a good debate with you as well.

Aden


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#128327 - 07/29/04 03:14 PM Re: Civil Liberties Union gone insane!
BT Offline


Registered: 06/25/03
Posts: 388
Loc: Chicago IL
I want to applaud both of you for being able to discuss such a contraversial issue in such a mature and honest fashion.

This is an increadibly hard subject for any survivor as we come to the topic with a strong bias, and strong feelings.

And to be able to debate such things without getting mad and all that is commendable.

Note: I'm keeping my opinion to myself for now. It seems to change often.

Bt.

_________________________
"Everyone is entitled to their opinions and it is not my job to change their mind." Dali Lama

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#128328 - 07/29/04 05:46 PM Re: Civil Liberties Union gone insane!
Bill_1965 Offline
Chat Mod Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 1983
Loc: Flint, Michigan
The Civil Liberties Union, either a states or the national, is a grand idea and is truely needed. Where ever there is power, there will be the potential for abuse of power. At the same time they have left the path.

Not all rights as granted under the constitution are 'absolute'.

We have the right to free speech. But, the right to free speech does not cover the right to yell "fire" in a crowded theater, nor does it give us the right to slander. This is a highly regarded right and rightfully so and so are its limitations.

We have the right to the pursuit of happiness. It doesn't give us the right to smash in a skull of somebody, even if it will make us happy. The rights of one do not outweigh the rights of another.

We have the right to keep and bear arms. This is under attack continually. The Civil Liberties Unions do not come running to the aid of a convicted murderer to carry a gun. Should they?

I find no difference in parallels between keeping a convicted user of a gun in criminal activities from access to a gun and keeping a convicted child abuser from access to children.

The Civil Liberties Unions purport to "defend the constitution of the United States" when they choose to only defend the portions they chose. This is where they went awry.

The Constitution of the United States and evident by the Declaration of Independence seperates Church and State. The founding fathers believed that we were all created equal by Nature and Nature's God and given certain rights by our Creator. God fearing men that held the belief that they should have the right to practice the religion of their chosing not the religion of the government's chosing as was the case in England with the Church of England. Civil Liberties Unions now chose to see that as meaning no reference in to God by government whatsoever, references deeply engrained in tradition. Taking everything down to its lowest common denominator.

We need to look out for our liberties. This is necessary. At the same time we cannot lose sight of the vision on the hopes of not offending anybody.

Humbly,
Bill

_________________________
Pain is Temporary; Quitting lasts Forever. - Lance Armstrong

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#128329 - 07/29/04 05:47 PM Re: Civil Liberties Union gone insane!
FlyWM Offline
Member

Registered: 09/14/03
Posts: 322
Loc: Michigan
As much as I hate the evil SOB's who hurt any child, I must agree with Scot on this point.

As he has said, we can't prevent a person from visiting a public space simply because it is possible he may break the law again. He broke the law and he has paid his debt to society for that.

I have heard of laws, or at least proposed laws that would inforce something called "Civil Commitment" (spelling). Basically, it says that a convicted sex offender, once he has served out his prison sentence, could be put into a mental hospital in definately, if just one doctor believes he may commit the same type of offense again. I just believe that this is running amok.

Sure, I agree with everyone that these sickos deserve to rot in hell, BUT once they have paid their debt to society once, they should enjoy all the rights that all 'normal' citizens enjoy, and one of those rights is to have a fantasy, even if that fantasy in practice would be illegal; also, this person should enjoy the right to visit a public park if he wishes, another right every citizen enjoys.

As has been said earlier, let everyone know that there is a sex-offender in the neighborhood, and one that frequents that park, I know that most people would 'keep an eye on him' in case he gets too close to a child.

He has been punished once, and taking away any of his rights again, without a commiting another crime, could be almost called cruel and unusual. Do we prevent convicted bank robbers from going to the bank? No. And so we as a society have no right to prevent these evil jackass from visiting a public place, even if it is where children play. If we did it would be like preventing all muslims from boarding a plane, and we just can't allow that to happen.

In this country we all have rights, and one of them is to visit public places. Another freedom enjoyed in this country is the freedom of speach, so no matter how unpopular a view maybe we have a right to voice it.

I am sorry if I have offended anyone, but I wanted to voice my oponion on the subject as well.

Peace,
scott

_________________________
Impossible is just a big word thrown around by small men who find it easier to live in the world they've been given than to explore the power they have to change it. Impossible in not a declaration, it's a dare.

--Adidas

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#128330 - 07/29/04 05:51 PM Re: Civil Liberties Union gone insane!
theo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 1117
i just now read this after catching word of it elsewhere. in this world we live in, too much has been comprimised in the name of frivolous litigation. there has been a dumbing down of some very basic constitutional guarentees we have as citizens of this flawed, but still great nation in the public school system. not changing the debate here, or trying to insult teachers (i am one in training btw), i am just setting up the background for my response.

several years ago, i faced this same type of question in terms of an assignment that had to be debated. the presentation was of a white supremecist who spoke out in a public place and caused a commotion, but not riot, and was promptly arrested. the question up for debate was should this moron have the right to speak in public freely of such hatreds (assume no riot or violence ensues, of course)? bottom line, as repulsive as this mentality is, the answer was unequivocally yes. violence would have changed the outcome of this, but the right of free speech is not conditioned on intelligence or maturity...just witness the latest political debates.

there have been too many instances throughout history where the emotions of a community got carried away and a greater harm was done. it sickens me that a predator can thumb his nose and still persist in the behavior by government sanction. i admit this...but what would sicken and grieve me more would be to see a precedent set that a society would condone emotional vigilante terror. the racial lynchings of the late 19th, up to mid 20th centuries were condoned and accepted as "protecting the community". the salem withc trials, spanish inquisition, gay bashing, ethnic cleansing, ...all of these were accepted in the mindset of the locals in terms of keeping them safe. that is what our civil liberties really refer to, not the absurd litigation that swamps the courts. not the hair splittiing, technicalities, bs that permeate the media coverage. none of that, it is the spectre of what had happened before that we must prevent, even when it comes to filth.

one last thing to clarify my position. history has taught us, even yesterday's headlines, that when a person is removed from their basic humanity, then it becomes acceptable to do whatever one wants to do to this "inhuman" creature. nazi propaganda made the jewish people less than human, tragedy. racial and ethnic stereotyping can easily rob a group of their humanity, open season begins. the way i look at it, the bill of rights does not guarentee absurd litigation, it guarentees the right to be perceived as a human being, and treated accordingly. remove that...

_________________________
journey well,
theo dewolfe

- It is gift, and gift will find its way
- I inherit through my choice. I build through my affirmation. It is through my freedom that I nurture, or fade into autonomy
- I was not given to serve life, but to embrace it

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#128331 - 07/29/04 06:50 PM Re: Civil Liberties Union gone insane!
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Interesting....

Here in the UK we have the same issues.
Many of our convicted sex offenders are out 'on licence' - they can be hauled back into prison for breaking the terms of the licence, which can vary case to case.

These offenders are also placed on the Sex Offenders Register, in theory they register their home address with the police and report to police / probation at set times, and recieve treatment.
How effective this is is open to debate.

Trials have also been done with electronic tagging that is linked to GPS Satelite systems that can pinpoint the person to a matter of yards.
A common feature of our 'Register' is to place restrictions on the places a known offender can go, and it's possible ( and common ) to ban offenders from any places where children gather - schools and parks for example. GPS Tagging just makes that restriction easier to police.
So here it would be possible, and likely, that this guy would be restricted from the woods by the park.

The paranoia this kind of offender generates is possibly way out of proportion to the actual amount of stranger attacks.
The school close to where I live has cut down all the trees and shrubs in the grounds so "perverts can't leap out on the children" ( the headmasters reassuring words )- even bushes a foot high right alongside footpaths have been cleared !

As for freedom of speech, and I think that it's basically the same argument, then here in the UK people have been locked up for "incitement" - notably the Muslim Cleric Abu Hamza al-Masri.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/3919009.stm

The French philosopher Voltaire once said "I dissaprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
But where is that line in the sand, the one that marks the difference between opinion and incitement? and who marks the line?

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#128332 - 07/29/04 07:22 PM Re: Civil Liberties Union gone insane!
BT Offline


Registered: 06/25/03
Posts: 388
Loc: Chicago IL
I believe the question we have to answer is what is acceptable punishment for a child abuser, and what is the difference between punishment and the protection of society?

Is it a prison term, a death sentence, life in prison, lifetime monitoring, or something else.

We have to consider that there are many types of crimes that carry varied lifetime ramifications and as a society we have decided that protecting ourselves from "potential" criminal behavior is more important than some peoples "rights"

For example while a "convicted bank robber" that has served his sentence can certainly go in a bank and conduct business, he will never be allowed to work there. He and a passell of other convicted felons, depending on both state and federal laws, will not be allowed work in countless jobs that require a license, or bonding, or financial matters, and in some states barbers and such that have access to knives, razors, etc...

The laws are varied and some sound silly, but over the decades we have as a society decided to limit the freedoms of those that have broken our laws in all kinds of ways, often for the rest of their lives.

Some violations result in the loss of voting privaleges, sometimes for life. Sometimes the right to drive is permantly revoked. Sometimes computer access is denied, sometimes for life.

Most felons will never have the right to own a gun. No matter what your personal position on guns, this is at present a constitutionally guaranteed right, yet we have decided felons will not have this right.

Is this so different from access to a park? The constitution does not guarentee access to a park. In today's world after 9/11 there are some "public" parks and areas that none of us have access to. Could we not argue that infringes on our right to be there. Could we not sue the govt for refusing our access to the Statue of Liberty? If we did, most people would consider us crazy, because we understand why we have placed such limitations on ourselves.

So in my opinion the discussion should not be so much about whether freedoms and rights should be limited for past sexual offendors, but rather what should those limitations be.

We have as a culture already made the decision to limit rights and freedoms of criminals, now we have to decide in this case which ones are relevent and how to apply them.

And while we do want to carefully protect our liberties, we also want to protect our lives and our children.

We have decided that living in a society ruled by law is preferential to all others. We freely choose to give up liberty every day in order to maintain a free and open society. And we have decided that in some cases we must use law to limit the freedoms of some because they cannot be allowed free exersize of their will, because it is harmful or could be harmful to others.

And yes there are countless examples of what can happen when government, or power runs amuck. But the opposite can be said as well. The absolute absence of law and order and such is even worse.

The answer I believe is somewhere in between. The challenge is to find the right balance, the line that protects our kids, without limiting freedom more than is required.

And as survivors, if we can put our desire to "kill" them all aside and discuss relevent solutions as seems to be the case in this thread, then by god, there is no limit to what we can do to change the world.

BT

_________________________
"Everyone is entitled to their opinions and it is not my job to change their mind." Dali Lama

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#128333 - 07/30/04 10:20 AM Re: Civil Liberties Union gone insane!
Aden Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/04
Posts: 499
This is an update on the situation that we are discussing.

The U.S. Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals has chosen to hear the case of “John Doe v. The City of Lafayette” My letter to the editor of our local news paper concerning this issue (circulation approx. 150,000} appeared on the page opposite the announcement that the higher court would hear the case.

So far the Indiana Civil Liberties Union has failed to respond to my inquiries regarding their position on this issue.

My congratulations and thanks to all here at MS for such a well thought and rational debate of such a sensitive issue. You are a fine and intelligent group of men. Yes, even the ones who don’t agree with my position. This is how things are changed and decisions made in a democratic society.

That we can express our thought openly and without rancor is proof that we are not so damaged by our pasts as to be without hope.

Aden


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