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#128081 - 07/18/04 02:35 PM Re: patriot act?
theo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 1117
aden,
your response was astute and quite balanced. my first grasp of the implications of the patriot act did stem from my research on gun control. the danger in the patriot act is in the extreme flexibility of the definition constituting federal intervention on "terrorism". it is not so much the concern of being highlighted by voicing a conflicting view, it is the danger of situations such the McCarthy era of the "red scare", or 19th century britain during the french wars where a detractor of the government was accused of being unpatriotic, a serious charge in the context of its times. the way i look at it, if this patriot act could have a balance on it that could not be infringed without accountability for hte enforcers, then it could be a good thing. it would be similar to the very specific way the catholic church outlines papal infailibity. only when speaking for the entire universal church and defining what is held by the entire church, can the office of the papcy be held iinfalible. nothing arbitrary there. this is why legislation like the patriot act and emotional smear campaigns can have so much devastation in their wake. protection against enemies foreign and domestic, yes...but if it comes at the expense of the dignity, iintegrity, and right to legitimately express criticism, then the price becomes too high.

_________________________
journey well,
theo dewolfe

- It is gift, and gift will find its way
- I inherit through my choice. I build through my affirmation. It is through my freedom that I nurture, or fade into autonomy
- I was not given to serve life, but to embrace it

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#128082 - 07/18/04 03:35 PM Re: patriot act?
Aden Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/04
Posts: 499
Theo,

And that is why we must continue to debate this subject. As you say, there is plenty of room for abuse of such unrestricted power. And those abuses are sure to happen. But let's not throw out the baby with the bath water. Let us rather continue to observe the process and react with reason. My freedom of speech has not yet been infringed by this Act. The local paper prints protests against the government every day. And while I don't agree with many of those protests, I rejoice in the fact that they are there. Better this confusion of democracy than the totalitarian boot. We seem to be riding the line here. We have to keep our eyes open, as well as our minds.

Aden


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#128083 - 07/18/04 04:58 PM Re: patriot act?
Bill_1965 Offline
Chat Mod Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 1983
Loc: Flint, Michigan
There is a lot of evil out there. And a lot of abuse. Unfortunately there isnít one thing or a series of things that we can do to stop either.

Law enforcement (a.k.a. the government) needs to have the power to seek out those that are doing evil and bring them to justice. Unfortunately, where there is power, there will be abuse of power. That is why the separation of powers laid out in the U.S. Constitution is so important.

Government is broken down into three branches with three distinct tasks. Although lately one of the branches have really been stepping over the line and needs to be reeled in.

The legislative branch, the congress, makes the laws. Including the Patriot Act. The president may ask for a law, but he cannot make a law, this is not a power he has nor should ever have.

The executive branch, the president and his departments, enforce the laws. They have to use the laws that are on the books. If they step over the line, they will be reeled in.

The judicial branch, the courts, interpret the laws. When we donít agree if the law covers something, we ask the judges. Somehow the courts have been taking on some of the legislative and executive authorities. Rewriting some laws and issuing directives.

Without laws, such as the Patriot Act and child protection laws, the government is powerless to protect us from the evils that lurk around us. But even with even the loosest of laws, the government cannot protect us from each and every evil. We have to do our part too.

We talk about boundaries. The boundaries we set for our lives, how much we allow someone in interact with our lives. Balancing the risk with the benefit. The same goes for our laws and government. We need to balance how much we let the government into our lives with the protection they provide us. If you want some sense of protection from the government, you have to let them into our lives some. If you donít want the government into your life, you canít expect them to provide much protection. This is a balance that we need to seek out. With our boundaries, we can rewrite them daily to fit our needs; with the government we need to pass laws.

If you donít like the law, ask congress to change them, donít yell at the executive branch. Direct the energy where the change can be made. No president has ever passed a law, that is the way I like it. Checks and balances, to help keep the abuse of power down. Now if we could find a way of keeping people from abusing power, then there would be no new members joining us. Wouldnít that be nice.

Bill

_________________________
Pain is Temporary; Quitting lasts Forever. - Lance Armstrong

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#128084 - 07/18/04 05:14 PM Re: patriot act?
Aden Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/04
Posts: 499
Seeing a discussion moved from opinion to thoughtful consideration is gratifying. No one has to agree with anyone else. But reason is the rule. We must continue to care for one an other even as we fight among ourselves. None of us posesses the whole body of all knowledge. That is why we exchange ideas. To learn and grow in our understanding.

I love you guys! On other web sites I would have been banned for life because of my opinion. But here, we talk about it like reasonable adults. How refreshing!

Aden


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#128085 - 07/18/04 05:38 PM Re: patriot act?
theo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 1117
aden,
not always \:D , but often enough to warrent coming back \:\) (open discussion that is lol)

_________________________
journey well,
theo dewolfe

- It is gift, and gift will find its way
- I inherit through my choice. I build through my affirmation. It is through my freedom that I nurture, or fade into autonomy
- I was not given to serve life, but to embrace it

Top
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