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#128059 - 07/14/04 12:11 AM patriot act?
theo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 1122
yes, i am drunk, but i have to say the patriot act is a piece of hooyey

sorry

i will log off now

_________________________
journey well,
theo dewolfe

- It is gift, and gift will find its way
- I inherit through my choice. I build through my affirmation. It is through my freedom that I nurture, or fade into autonomy
- I was not given to serve life, but to embrace it

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#128060 - 07/14/04 12:20 AM Re: patriot act?
MikeNY Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/07/04
Posts: 927
Loc: NY
I know that making the day that we vote a national holiday would say a lot more for democracy than most of our other holidays do.

_________________________
"Every child asks the questions which hold the answers to the secrets of the universe, WHAT?, and WHY?". --Me

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#128061 - 07/14/04 12:51 AM Re: patriot act?
theo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 1122
true, mike, very true. but who would celebrate the right of choice?

_________________________
journey well,
theo dewolfe

- It is gift, and gift will find its way
- I inherit through my choice. I build through my affirmation. It is through my freedom that I nurture, or fade into autonomy
- I was not given to serve life, but to embrace it

Top
#128062 - 07/15/04 04:26 AM Re: patriot act?
Leosha Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 3614
Loc: Right here
What is the 'Patriot act'?

Leosha

_________________________
Avatar photo in memory of my younger brother Makar.

"Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted."~~~Martin Luther King Jr., 1963

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#128063 - 07/15/04 07:54 AM Re: patriot act?
theo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 1122
leosha,
it is a piece of legislation put through by the congress right after the events of 9-11. what is does is give the federal government more latitude in what it can do legally when conducting any "terroist" threat of domestic or foreign origin. it in theory allows for suspension of many of the technicalities that help protect its citizens from unreasonable search, seizure, and privacy. it is part of the homeland security concept. the problem, is the broad definition given to "terrorist threat". there are extreme notions of what has or could happen in terms of the law's potential abuse. in this current age of fear, too much can be easily misconstrued and would be iin trouble with the homeland security team for something that would have been completely innocent and without issue prior to the events of 9-11. hope i have not made it worse with the explanation. also, i would not be surprisedd if i got some details wrong, but the gist is legislation the government can use against a too generic threat definition. the potential for mistakes is large.

_________________________
journey well,
theo dewolfe

- It is gift, and gift will find its way
- I inherit through my choice. I build through my affirmation. It is through my freedom that I nurture, or fade into autonomy
- I was not given to serve life, but to embrace it

Top
#128064 - 07/16/04 12:06 AM Re: patriot act?
MikeNY Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/07/04
Posts: 927
Loc: NY
It was George and his magic pen acting like FDR.

_________________________
"Every child asks the questions which hold the answers to the secrets of the universe, WHAT?, and WHY?". --Me

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#128065 - 07/16/04 01:16 AM Re: patriot act?
theo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 1122
\:\)

thanks, mike. i needed that.

_________________________
journey well,
theo dewolfe

- It is gift, and gift will find its way
- I inherit through my choice. I build through my affirmation. It is through my freedom that I nurture, or fade into autonomy
- I was not given to serve life, but to embrace it

Top
#128066 - 07/16/04 03:15 AM Re: patriot act?
MikeNY Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/07/04
Posts: 927
Loc: NY
Curious George getting himself into trouble creating wrongs in the world to right while the man in the yellow hat (Rumsfeld) stands by to tell him what to do when he gets caught.

_________________________
"Every child asks the questions which hold the answers to the secrets of the universe, WHAT?, and WHY?". --Me

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#128067 - 07/16/04 11:57 AM Re: patriot act?
theo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 1122
careful, mike...cg and hatboy are watching ;\)

_________________________
journey well,
theo dewolfe

- It is gift, and gift will find its way
- I inherit through my choice. I build through my affirmation. It is through my freedom that I nurture, or fade into autonomy
- I was not given to serve life, but to embrace it

Top
#128068 - 07/16/04 01:49 PM Re: patriot act?
MikeNY Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/07/04
Posts: 927
Loc: NY
I've written them letters before theo. I don't care. They can watch all they want to. I know for a fact that I have been federally investigated at least twice. Once was for a job. Once wasn't. I'm probably eventually going to either get thrown out of this country, lynched, or imprisoned for not keeping my mouth shut about speaking the truth. I'm close to one right now.

_________________________
"Every child asks the questions which hold the answers to the secrets of the universe, WHAT?, and WHY?". --Me

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#128071 - 07/16/04 05:10 PM Re: patriot act?
theo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 1122
marc,
i am crying that was sooooooo hilarious! even i cannot add to that pair...of quips that is \:D

mike,
the lynching would be too saddamistic...he would have to find another way to respond, but with marc's observation, i don't think you hve much to worry about \:\)

_________________________
journey well,
theo dewolfe

- It is gift, and gift will find its way
- I inherit through my choice. I build through my affirmation. It is through my freedom that I nurture, or fade into autonomy
- I was not given to serve life, but to embrace it

Top
#128072 - 07/16/04 09:12 PM Re: patriot act?
MikeNY Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/07/04
Posts: 927
Loc: NY
The lynching would be from society theo. I live in Smalltown, USA. Bowling and drinking are the main social events here. They can be combined together, or you can just do the drinking on it's own.

_________________________
"Every child asks the questions which hold the answers to the secrets of the universe, WHAT?, and WHY?". --Me

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#128073 - 07/16/04 11:56 PM Re: patriot act?
Leosha Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 3614
Loc: Right here
Thank you for explaining some in response to my question Theo. As to the rest, it seems people do not like Bush and co. Spoken as non-citizen and from the outside of your political system, I would humbly suggest a reform of the electoral college system, and possibly presidential 'line item' veto. But that is just me, and of course, how is that accomplished?

leosha

_________________________
Avatar photo in memory of my younger brother Makar.

"Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted."~~~Martin Luther King Jr., 1963

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#128074 - 07/17/04 12:02 AM Re: patriot act?
MikeNY Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/07/04
Posts: 927
Loc: NY
How about a complete overhaul of the system? With the technology and everything else available, we have many options. Since the govt. likes to spend money on new agencies and major projects to get out of economic slumps, how about a whole new system? Let's separate items and vote individually on them rather than clumping them together in some stupid collective bargaining agreement. Let's publish the items and how our representatives vote on them. Let's open up a whole new agency where people can vote on individual items directly to their representatives. Make it a project that is similar to the way the post office was. Let's make voting available 6 days a week with branches in every town. Make the politicians answer to the people. (see, I'm going to get kicked out. lol)

_________________________
"Every child asks the questions which hold the answers to the secrets of the universe, WHAT?, and WHY?". --Me

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#128075 - 07/17/04 12:13 AM Re: patriot act?
theo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 1122
leo,
the electoral college is definitely something that would need to be addressed. however, it is not as simple as mass direct democracy such as the ancient greeks (leave aside the franchise was granted only to those who were citizens, defined as men). ideally, the elctoral college works as well as the will of the people want it to through the chocie of the vote. when it comes right down to it, a representative is as good as, or as bad as, we choose to make it. if we allow our choice to be swayed by the moment, or power, than we have surrendered already. sound familiar? in this, it is a choice we make. btw, leo...a line item veto would work, but only if the office earned it. there is some vero power the presidential office has, but there must be safeguards against abuse...however theoretical that safeguard is. a straight line item veto could be too dangerous if by straight it was allowed to be at will.

those are good and sensible suggestions, leosha. if i could, i would write you in for the next election ;\)

_________________________
journey well,
theo dewolfe

- It is gift, and gift will find its way
- I inherit through my choice. I build through my affirmation. It is through my freedom that I nurture, or fade into autonomy
- I was not given to serve life, but to embrace it

Top
#128076 - 07/17/04 09:51 AM Re: patriot act?
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5780
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
Sounds like this discussion should be moved to Off Topic. Seems survivor issues got a little side tracked? :rolleyes:


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#128077 - 07/17/04 12:21 PM Re: patriot act?
theo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 1122
oooops \:\)

actually, ken, that crossed my mind as i was responding last time. (insert innocent look, whistling smiley here)

_________________________
journey well,
theo dewolfe

- It is gift, and gift will find its way
- I inherit through my choice. I build through my affirmation. It is through my freedom that I nurture, or fade into autonomy
- I was not given to serve life, but to embrace it

Top
#128078 - 07/18/04 11:59 AM Re: patriot act?
Aden Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/04
Posts: 499
There is a large Arab population in the town where I live. So far, not a single suicide bomber has blown up the shoppin mall or pizza parlor.

Will the feds read this because I used the words "suicide bomber?" Maybe. Do I care? Not at all. If my mom had been a little more vigilent when I was being abuse, it might never have happened.

Some people think that the Patroit Act is an abuse of their civil rights. I see it more as a protection of my right to life. But then I use to eat my lunch in the plaza between the WTC towers.
I guess it is just a matter of point of view.

Aden


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#128079 - 07/18/04 12:06 PM Re: patriot act?
MikeNY Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/07/04
Posts: 927
Loc: NY
Yes, and I have eaten lunch in the restaurants in the buildings there too, before the buildings fell. I have also been a member of the WTC organization.

Everybody is allowed their point of view on things, that is, for now at least (as long as most of the time you keep it to yourself, or scream it so loud that you won't get consumed by your surroundings). We still have that right, until GW or someone else takes what's left of that away too. Yes, why should it feel any different to you. It is what you were programmed to find acceptable. We apparently don't have rights to our own bodies, why should we have any rights to anything else either.

_________________________
"Every child asks the questions which hold the answers to the secrets of the universe, WHAT?, and WHY?". --Me

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#128080 - 07/18/04 01:44 PM Re: patriot act?
Aden Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/04
Posts: 499
There is a difference between programming and well considered thought. The value of my opinion cannot be reduced by judging it to be programming.I have little use for the federal government and consider those who rise to national power to ALL be highly suspect. The only rightful purpose of the Federal government is the protection of its citizens from undue infringment on their God given rights, among which the most important is the right to life. At times the government MUST impose some restrictions on the lesser liberties in order to protect the greater good.

They take my hard earned money from me by force, to build roads and schools. It is an infringment to which I sometimes agree. They restrict my freedom to act on my impulses in many ways. Again I agree to be subject to those restrictions because they protect me from others doing the same.

While being subject to the "social contract" I cannot recall being asked to sign on, or given any other option. I deeply resent any intrusion into my life by the government. But I also deeply resent having my lunch room blown up by forign radicals. In th balance, I prefer that my elected representitives take actions that, while they may limit my theoretical freedom, are designed to inhibit others from murdering me at random will.

I don't believe that there are people out there who would like to kill me, rape me, and take my stuff, because Bush or Limbaugh told me so. Nor am I paranoid. I believe those things because in my life they have been proven true.

The Patriot Act doesn't offend me simply because there is nothing that I wish to do that the government is in any way interested in with this legislation. I am more afraid of the anti-gun lobby than the Bush Administration.

There are plenty of things wrong with this government, this nation, and the whole human race. The Patriot Act is way down toward the bottom of my list. That is not my pre-programned thinking. I am not a flying monkey or mind numb robot. I am just a guy who would like to believe that I can have a pastromi on rye in the public square and make it back to work on time.

Aden


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#128081 - 07/18/04 02:35 PM Re: patriot act?
theo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 1122
aden,
your response was astute and quite balanced. my first grasp of the implications of the patriot act did stem from my research on gun control. the danger in the patriot act is in the extreme flexibility of the definition constituting federal intervention on "terrorism". it is not so much the concern of being highlighted by voicing a conflicting view, it is the danger of situations such the McCarthy era of the "red scare", or 19th century britain during the french wars where a detractor of the government was accused of being unpatriotic, a serious charge in the context of its times. the way i look at it, if this patriot act could have a balance on it that could not be infringed without accountability for hte enforcers, then it could be a good thing. it would be similar to the very specific way the catholic church outlines papal infailibity. only when speaking for the entire universal church and defining what is held by the entire church, can the office of the papcy be held iinfalible. nothing arbitrary there. this is why legislation like the patriot act and emotional smear campaigns can have so much devastation in their wake. protection against enemies foreign and domestic, yes...but if it comes at the expense of the dignity, iintegrity, and right to legitimately express criticism, then the price becomes too high.

_________________________
journey well,
theo dewolfe

- It is gift, and gift will find its way
- I inherit through my choice. I build through my affirmation. It is through my freedom that I nurture, or fade into autonomy
- I was not given to serve life, but to embrace it

Top
#128082 - 07/18/04 03:35 PM Re: patriot act?
Aden Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/04
Posts: 499
Theo,

And that is why we must continue to debate this subject. As you say, there is plenty of room for abuse of such unrestricted power. And those abuses are sure to happen. But let's not throw out the baby with the bath water. Let us rather continue to observe the process and react with reason. My freedom of speech has not yet been infringed by this Act. The local paper prints protests against the government every day. And while I don't agree with many of those protests, I rejoice in the fact that they are there. Better this confusion of democracy than the totalitarian boot. We seem to be riding the line here. We have to keep our eyes open, as well as our minds.

Aden


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#128083 - 07/18/04 04:58 PM Re: patriot act?
Bill_1965 Offline
Chat Mod Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 1983
Loc: Flint, Michigan
There is a lot of evil out there. And a lot of abuse. Unfortunately there isnít one thing or a series of things that we can do to stop either.

Law enforcement (a.k.a. the government) needs to have the power to seek out those that are doing evil and bring them to justice. Unfortunately, where there is power, there will be abuse of power. That is why the separation of powers laid out in the U.S. Constitution is so important.

Government is broken down into three branches with three distinct tasks. Although lately one of the branches have really been stepping over the line and needs to be reeled in.

The legislative branch, the congress, makes the laws. Including the Patriot Act. The president may ask for a law, but he cannot make a law, this is not a power he has nor should ever have.

The executive branch, the president and his departments, enforce the laws. They have to use the laws that are on the books. If they step over the line, they will be reeled in.

The judicial branch, the courts, interpret the laws. When we donít agree if the law covers something, we ask the judges. Somehow the courts have been taking on some of the legislative and executive authorities. Rewriting some laws and issuing directives.

Without laws, such as the Patriot Act and child protection laws, the government is powerless to protect us from the evils that lurk around us. But even with even the loosest of laws, the government cannot protect us from each and every evil. We have to do our part too.

We talk about boundaries. The boundaries we set for our lives, how much we allow someone in interact with our lives. Balancing the risk with the benefit. The same goes for our laws and government. We need to balance how much we let the government into our lives with the protection they provide us. If you want some sense of protection from the government, you have to let them into our lives some. If you donít want the government into your life, you canít expect them to provide much protection. This is a balance that we need to seek out. With our boundaries, we can rewrite them daily to fit our needs; with the government we need to pass laws.

If you donít like the law, ask congress to change them, donít yell at the executive branch. Direct the energy where the change can be made. No president has ever passed a law, that is the way I like it. Checks and balances, to help keep the abuse of power down. Now if we could find a way of keeping people from abusing power, then there would be no new members joining us. Wouldnít that be nice.

Bill

_________________________
Pain is Temporary; Quitting lasts Forever. - Lance Armstrong

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#128084 - 07/18/04 05:14 PM Re: patriot act?
Aden Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/04
Posts: 499
Seeing a discussion moved from opinion to thoughtful consideration is gratifying. No one has to agree with anyone else. But reason is the rule. We must continue to care for one an other even as we fight among ourselves. None of us posesses the whole body of all knowledge. That is why we exchange ideas. To learn and grow in our understanding.

I love you guys! On other web sites I would have been banned for life because of my opinion. But here, we talk about it like reasonable adults. How refreshing!

Aden


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#128085 - 07/18/04 05:38 PM Re: patriot act?
theo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 1122
aden,
not always \:D , but often enough to warrent coming back \:\) (open discussion that is lol)

_________________________
journey well,
theo dewolfe

- It is gift, and gift will find its way
- I inherit through my choice. I build through my affirmation. It is through my freedom that I nurture, or fade into autonomy
- I was not given to serve life, but to embrace it

Top
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