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#126404 - 03/12/04 09:32 PM Sexual Abuse Definition(front page)
Kassi Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/12/04
Posts: 2
Loc: Washington
I just have a little complaint sorta. Though not a male survivor, I am a survivor of sexual abuse. I was looking for sites to link from my site and came across this one. While my fiance is also a survivor of sexual abuse, I took an interest in this site to see what it was about before I passed it along to him. I noticed the definition on the front page of sexual abuse says...

"Sexual abuse - Any sexual act between an adult and child. This includes fondling, penetration, intercourse, exploitation, pornography, exhibitionism, child prostitution, group sex, oral sex, or forced observation of sexual acts."

I dont think thats correct. It doesnt have to be between a child and an adult. It can be between an adult and another adult or a child and another child. It doesnt have to be an adult and a child. Thats the only thing I disagree with on the site. Other than that, awesome job. Im glad men have a great place to come and discuss things without feeling judged, etc. Props to who started the site and everyone involved. Good luck to you all.


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#126405 - 03/19/04 07:09 PM Re: Sexual Abuse Definition(front page)
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Kassi
thanks for the kind words about MS, it is a good place for men and their partners and friends. I hope you gained something from your visit and come back again.

Your point about other children being capable of abuse is absolutely right, when I was 11 my abusers were barely 13yo. It's not much in the adult world, but eons apart when you're a kid.

Take care
Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#126406 - 03/20/04 02:50 AM Re: Sexual Abuse Definition(front page)
subdeacon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 83
Loc: Florida
Thank you both for what you've written. I was abused by my brother when he was ages 9-13 (and I was 6-9 or so)...at least that's what I remember. This is the first time I've actually heard someone else mention that they were abused by another kid. I hate to say it, that gives me some hope. I don't feel as isolated even within this community! Sorry to sound so sappy about that, but there you go!

God bless!

_________________________
"By way of trials and sufferings we must purify the divine image in us...for it is by reforging our senses in the furnace of our trials that we free them from defilement and assume our royal dignity. --Abba Philimon

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#126407 - 03/20/04 02:10 PM Re: Sexual Abuse Definition(front page)
crisispoint Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 2154
Loc: Massachusetts
Kassi and others,

I think you're right. Sexual abuse and rape doesn;t have to be between an adult and child. Children, Sadly as you guys have pointed out, abuse other children and adults (men and women) get raped. I've suffered both.

Maybe the meaning should read "unwanted or forced - through physical threats, intimidation, or mental/emotional manipulation - sexual contact between two or more people."

Just a thought. It may be overly complicated, but someone less verbose than I \:D can edit it.

Thoughts? Response?

Peace and love,

Scot

_________________________
There are reasons I'm taking medication. They're called "other people." - Me, displaying my anti-social tendancies

fromacuriousmind.blogspot.com
malehurtandsurvive.blogspot.com

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#126408 - 03/20/04 02:25 PM Re: Sexual Abuse Definition(front page)
MikeNY Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/07/04
Posts: 927
Loc: NY
No, according to the things that I have read (including some laws), it should read: ANY and ALL sexual contact that occurs without consent. Including people who are not capable of giving consent whether it be legally (children), or for ANY other reason including people in hospitals, nursing homes, medications, drugs, alcohol, sleeping, coerced through manipulation or threats, forced physically, etc. etc..

Sexual Assault, is ANY unwanted sexual contact. The law recognizes (where it does supposedly recognize any) multiple levels of SA including multiple levels of rape. Part of the ignorance is the common belief that the only kind of rape that occurs is a violent act that men do in dark alleys to women, or what priests do to boys. Those jokes in newspapers are so sickening. It must be completely devastating to the people who have actually been abused by the clergy. I know it sickens me seeing it on the news and seeing that even though the behavior is being openly admitted because of investigations being held by the police and the church, NOTHING is still being done about it. The truth is that the majority of all SA's that occur, including rape, the victum knows the assaulter. Quite often they trust them, or have been told to trust them, or the assaulter is someone with authority that you have been tought to respect or fear, like a relative, a parent, the clergy, the police, etc. etc. etc.. The numbers that I am coming across are as many as 1 in 6 men or boys are assaulted. These are probably highly skewed because of the social reasons that many people here on this board are very well aware of. As always, the numbers also vary from source to source.

I should also add that giving consent for contact of any kind once does not infer that consent is permanent or applies to other types of contact. I don't know anything about the laws anywhere except where I live. Here, the laws exist. The police and the courts do not enforce them, and society ignores it all until it effects them personally, or until it's sensationalized by the press and violent.

_________________________
"Every child asks the questions which hold the answers to the secrets of the universe, WHAT?, and WHY?". --Me

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#126409 - 03/31/04 08:53 PM Re: Sexual Abuse Definition(front page)
Kassi Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/12/04
Posts: 2
Loc: Washington
Thanks for your responses. Sorry I didnt come back here sooner, theres been a ton of crap going on here. I do appreciate the insights and comments though \:\)


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#126410 - 04/01/04 03:29 PM Re: Sexual Abuse Definition(front page)
Brayton Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 696
Loc: Minneapolis
I was abused by older guys (not adults) from the time I was 4. Since I began remembering and began to comprehend what happened, I have never had any trouble understanding that it was bonafide SA.

I have encountered the classic denial line that if it is "between kids" is just exploration, play, or someting like that. That is bullsh't.

Any person who has power over another regardless of their age is in a position to perpetrate SA on another.

_________________________
Sometimes, things just won't work the way we want them to.

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#126411 - 04/03/04 12:36 AM Re: Sexual Abuse Definition(front page)
gryffindor Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/08/03
Posts: 131
Loc: St. Charles, Illinois
http://www.sasian.org is devoted to sibling abuse including sibling incest.

I don't know much about this site except that it appears legtimate and serious. Maybe it will be helpful.

Mary

_________________________
"Where there's a will, there's a way." American Folk Saying

"Had I not fallen, I could not have arisen; had I not sat in darkness, I would not have recognized the light." Midrash Tehillim Ch. 22

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#126412 - 04/03/04 03:48 PM Re: Sexual Abuse Definition(front page)
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5775
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
I'm going to rewrite the definition. Your suggestions are helpful and I hope I can do it without getting too wordy.

Btw, when I do training for professionals (as well as define sexual abuse for abusers in treatment) I use definitions of "consent", "coercion", "cooperation", and "compliance".

Here they are:
Consent - When a partner freely agrees to do something. This person must understand what the behavior is all about without being tricked or confused. The partner must know what is acceptable in the culture, family and peer group and must also be aware of the possible consequences for him/herself and others, as well as alternatives to the behavior. It has to be OK to say no with no worries about negative consequences. Partner must be mentally competent (of equal intelligence and not under the influence of alcohol or drugs). Legally, there is no such thing as consent for children if the other person is more than four years older. That means the older person cannot excuse his/her behavior by saying the child agreed to it. Many people on probation for sexual offenses are in their 20s and had sex with a 14 or 15 year old they considered a girlfriend. The fact that there may have been a relationship and the girl may have agreed to be sexual does not change the legal definition of this as (statutory) rape.
Healthy, equal relationships almost always involve consent.

Coercion - Using tricks, bribes, force, threats, or intimidation to get someone to go along with what you want them to do. This is usually how someone gets a child to participate in sexual behaviors. Offering to give video games, threatening to tell something on the other person if he/she doesn’t go along with it, and “wrestling” to get a sexual touch are all forms of coercion. Coercion is the tool to get someone to comply or cooperate.

Compliance - When someone simply goes along without actively resisting even though he/she may think it is wrong and doesn’t want to participate. You can probably think of times when you went along with something you didn’t want to do just because others were doing it or suggesting it. Maybe you didn’t want to look “wussy” or you were concerned about fitting in so you went along with whatever was expected. You might not have felt it was OK or acceptable to say no. Just because you didn’t say no and went along with it didn’t mean you thought it was an OK thing to do.

Cooperation - When someone participates and doesn’t know or understand the consequences or meaning of the activity. Young children may cooperate, but they have no understanding of sexual behaviors.


I don't know whether this should also be posted (may get too confusing). Perhaps just defining consent and coercion?

Your thoughts?
Ken


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#126413 - 04/03/04 07:25 PM Re: Sexual Abuse Definition(front page)
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Ken
without getting into the difference between UK and US law, I was 'first' abused at 11yo by a boy of 13yo. He took advantage of a situation where he knew I wasn't able to do or say anything at that moment.

After that he upped the stakes, and the sexual contact became more. (anal sex ) Then he introduced me to his friend who was also 13yo and they both abused me.
When I backed off, I was beaten and raped by the whole gang of six boys. Cooperation from then on was guaranteed.

This ( the early stuff before the gang rape that was the result of coercion ) had nothing to do with sexual exploration, that happened as well ! I don't count that stuff.
In total I consider that I've had six older boys as abusers, and one adult. ( I also had a sexual encouter at about 4yo when a man held my hand and masturbated him, but again I rarely count that for some reason ) But if I counted the male people that I've had some kind of sexual contact with it would be double that at least. ( and many more while acting out as an adult )

In a closed situation like a boarding school 'experimentation' will take place. And I can honestly say that I never initiated it, and having said that, is a single act of mutual masturbation initiated by an older boy abuse ?

Perhaps it is, and in the scale of things ( my personal experiences ) the one off wank comes so far down the list I never bothered to count it.
But what if it was initiated by the older boy because he knew that I was having 'regular sex' with the gang ? I suppose then that he would have taken advantage of me because of that knowledge, and that's abuse.

SA between closely aged boys is a minefield, I know that one man in our therapy group was masturbated once by a boy 3 years older than him at the time.
And the results he displays as an adult are classic - he's one of the worst affected guys in our group and it IS down to this one instance of masturbation.
Just the sort of incident I have discounted.

Perhaps the difference lies in the abuse of power rather than a 'minor' sexual act.
If I had said "fuck off !" to these 'one off abusers' I think they would have left me alone, and maybe because I sensed that I then 'chose' to enjoy the sex - because no threats, coercion or trickery was involved.
The guy in our group was thumped on the nose then masturbated when he was 13, that was an abuse of power. Perhaps if the older boy had asked and he had 'agreed', then it would have passed off as 'experimentation' and he wouldn't need to be in our group ?

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#126414 - 04/03/04 10:06 PM Re: Sexual Abuse Definition(front page)
MikeNY Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/07/04
Posts: 927
Loc: NY
You can create hyperlinks to a page that gives detailed definitions for highlighted words.

_________________________
"Every child asks the questions which hold the answers to the secrets of the universe, WHAT?, and WHY?". --Me

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#126415 - 04/09/04 04:42 PM Re: Sexual Abuse Definition(front page)
MikeNY Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/07/04
Posts: 927
Loc: NY
If it is possible, I would like to see some stuff added about some things.

Myth:
Women are not capable of committing these crimes when men are involved.

Myth:
An erection = consent.

Myth:
Men always consent to sex when women are involved.

FACT:
Women use or take advantage of alcohol and other things to commit sexual assault.


I will get some detailed information from professional sources refering to exactly what I am intending to say here if you would like.

The predator, yes that is what she was, that assalted me drove 40 miles crossing state lines to commit her crime.

_________________________
"Every child asks the questions which hold the answers to the secrets of the universe, WHAT?, and WHY?". --Me

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#126416 - 04/18/04 04:15 AM Re: Sexual Abuse Definition(front page)
HAWKEYE Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/18/04
Posts: 3
Loc: PHILA PA
Hi guys,
I am new to the group. I have been looking for a place to explore what happened to me when i was a child. I am a bit confused as to whether this is the place to discuss it, as the first person in this message board has discussed. I was abused by my older brother. I was 4 or 5 and he was 11-12 and it lasted for 7yrs. Is this group for me? Are most of the members here father-son incest survivors or is this for guys with my experience, also. Please let me know and maybe the moderators of this site should reconsider the definition of abuse.


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#126417 - 04/18/04 11:34 AM Re: Sexual Abuse Definition(front page)
MikeNY Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/07/04
Posts: 927
Loc: NY
You will find much help here. You have come to the right place. The wrong message forum, but the right place. You will get the most answers to your questions if you post in the "Male Survivor" forum.
:-)

_________________________
"Every child asks the questions which hold the answers to the secrets of the universe, WHAT?, and WHY?". --Me

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#126418 - 04/18/04 11:38 AM Re: Sexual Abuse Definition(front page)
blacken Offline
Chatroom Moderator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 08/13/01
Posts: 1207
Loc: Northern Ohio
Can you actually define Sexual Abuse in is entirety?
There are millions of Sexual Abuse Victims in the World. With so many cultures, religions & social policies dictating what is right & wrong, moral & taboo, acceptable & unlawful, And the millions of different experiences, How can we realistically define Sexually Abuse in an absolute?
The definition that MS provided, was not meant to Exclude any one or group. It is more of an introduction, a “validation by example”, rather than a ruling.
By “validation” I mean, “Yes, what was done to you, is Horrible.” Providing a simplified definition of Sexually Abuse here, at MaleSurvivor, is but One step.
Look around. Read the posts. Talk in chat. You will see Sexual Abuse being defined constantly.
This entire Web Site defines Sexual Abuse. With every post, we discover what Sexual Abuse is, in its endless forms, and the long-term effects on us. Sexual Abuse can not be defined simply. And Sexual Abuse can not be defined solely by the physical acts that take took place.
Sexual Abuse is more terrible than the sum of its parts. Those parts being (& not excluding) every other, or any combination, of abuse & neglect humans can wield upon another.
Whether by what we saw, or touched, or smelled, or felt, or tasted, or heard; they hurt us.
That “hurt” is so profound, yet No spoken or written word will ever be able to provide a complete definition of the thing we call Sexual Abuse.

_________________________
Everyone is a genius! If you were to judge a fish, by its ability to climb a tree,
it would think it was stupid all of it's life.
~Albert Einstein

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#126419 - 04/20/04 01:55 AM Re: Sexual Abuse Definition(front page)
subdeacon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 83
Loc: Florida
Hawkeye,
Yes, unfortunately, you do belong here with us. On the brighter side, you found us. I'm sorry for the reason you are here, as many said to me when I first came here a month or so ago, but I must say this place has been a great help to me in my first steps in recovery. My brother who was three years older than I was my main perpetrator and it lasted for about 3 or 4 years. I have also learned, through reading and therapy, that many of the behaviors of my mother and family were very inappropriate and if not outright abuse/covert incest, was skirting the edge of it.

TRIGGER ALERT:

To others who wrote on the subject:

I would also say that a woman can rape a man. My first sexual encounter with a woman ocurred when I was 19 (she was 24 and a Grad Student). I got drunk (I was never much of a drinker) at one of her parties and she seduced me. When she asked if I really wanted to have sex (after she had said we weren't going to to my relief...but that was just a lure to get me to, I found out), I said "No." Apparently "no" does not always mean no in her book. She started up anyway. I dissociated completely and felt like I was physically next to, beside myself. I was not in my body anymore. It's the oddest feeling! At any rate that seems to fit all of the criteria for rape or at least the inability to give consent (intoxification) and, well yes, rape, since I said no and she went on with it. Yes it's true an erection does not = consent in any way shape or form. I hope this did not trigger anyone. I hope that my warning was enough.

I wil also add that the woman who raped me was later fired from a job as a teacher in a private school. It seems she had a penchant for younger men. She was caught having affairs with the older students at her school.

God Bless
Philip

_________________________
"By way of trials and sufferings we must purify the divine image in us...for it is by reforging our senses in the furnace of our trials that we free them from defilement and assume our royal dignity. --Abba Philimon

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#126420 - 04/20/04 11:12 AM Re: Sexual Abuse Definition(front page)
outis Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/27/03
Posts: 2259
Loc: Maryland USA
What Sexual Abuse Means to Me

Sexual abuse is when one gratifies oneself by using any facet of another person's sexuality without regard for that person's physical, spiritual, emotional, or mental well being.

It's a purely selfish act. I suppose it might be done with deliberate intent to harm, but I have a feeling that most of the time it's not. I don't think age really has anything essential to do with it, no matter what the law says. The law defines legality but is quite blind to justice.

Hawkeye,

With that de>
_________________________
"Telemachos, your guest is no discredit to you. I wasted no time in stringing the bow, and I did not miss the mark. My strength is yet unbroken…"—The Odyssey, translated by W.H.D. Rouse

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#126421 - 04/20/04 02:07 PM Re: Sexual Abuse Definition(front page)
SAR Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 3310
Loc: USA
Ken

I'm sorry, I'm coming to this discussion a little late. Maybe it would be overload to put all that on the front page, but I think it should be somewhere close--Mike's idea of linking to it is a good one.

I think that seeing the words defined in that way (especially the differences between consent/compliance/cooperation) could go far in putting a survivor's guilt about "saying yes" to rest. I didn't find it confusing.

SAR


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