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#125933 - 01/27/04 01:04 AM Chat room closing...
Yves Offline
Member

Registered: 11/26/03
Posts: 93
Loc: Canada
I can't believe it... I just can't believe it... I feel...






























...empty

_________________________
You know you love someone when you want them to be happy even though their happiness means you're not part of it. ~Author Unknown~

Top
#125934 - 01/27/04 01:08 AM Re: Chat room closing...
Curtis St. John Offline
Past President
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/20/04
Posts: 1796
Loc: Westchester, N.Y.
I for one am very upset that the chat room is closing. This is my sanctuary and hearing this news is like finding out that my entire family has been killed in a plane crash and I will never see them again.

The chat room is the main reason I joined MS. I wish there was something we could do.

How do the rest of you feel?


Top
#125935 - 01/27/04 01:21 AM Re: Chat room closing...
Bill_1965 Offline
Chat Mod Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 1983
Loc: Flint, Michigan
\:\( \:\( \:\( \:\( \:\( \:\( \:\( \:\(


Bill

_________________________
Pain is Temporary; Quitting lasts Forever. - Lance Armstrong

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#125936 - 01/27/04 01:21 AM Re: Chat room closing...
rolling_is_life Offline
Member

Registered: 10/16/02
Posts: 53
Loc: Olympia, Washington
The chat room provides a faster way to deal with things because the response is much faster then a PM and its much more wide spread. I mean u can't send a PM to 5 diff ppl at once and have the same interaction as u do in a chat room. I am very disapointed.

_________________________
"Ignoring mortality, we worship mediocrity" -Greg Graffin

"Live fast, die young, leave a great looking corpse" -Ronny Van Zant

Top
#125937 - 01/27/04 01:24 AM Re: Chat room closing...
scarman Offline
Member

Registered: 01/09/04
Posts: 74
Loc: London On Canada
What? is this for real....somebody say it isn't so!!

_________________________
scarman stands for the tatoos I have, and also the emotional scars I've accumulated from my past.

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#125938 - 01/27/04 01:27 AM Re: Chat room closing...
rolling_is_life Offline
Member

Registered: 10/16/02
Posts: 53
Loc: Olympia, Washington
yes..in 5 days...jan 31'st its closing..for good..if u lgo to the page to log in thers a notice...

_________________________
"Ignoring mortality, we worship mediocrity" -Greg Graffin

"Live fast, die young, leave a great looking corpse" -Ronny Van Zant

Top
#125939 - 01/27/04 01:28 AM Re: Chat room closing...
Andrew Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/25/03
Posts: 1192
This is very, very disappointing news. TallSteve was doing such a great job in there and it provided a very necessary service. Chat room today, discussion board tomorrow? I am also disappointed in the arbitrary way this is being handled. As the chatroom was part of the services offered with our membership fees, perhaps the geniuses that are closing it down will also be reaching into their pockets to refund all the members ??? Peace, Andrew

_________________________
there is no courage without anxiety

Top
#125940 - 01/27/04 01:50 AM Re: Chat room closing...
Bill_1965 Offline
Chat Mod Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 1983
Loc: Flint, Michigan
I'd like to thank TallSteve and Thad for the great job they have been doing.

You deserve a big round of applause.

_________________________
Pain is Temporary; Quitting lasts Forever. - Lance Armstrong

Top
#125941 - 01/27/04 01:59 AM Re: Chat room closing...
Andrew Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/25/03
Posts: 1192
As per the grp. discussion in chat this pm. I will be seeking the counsel of a lawyer tomorrow morning to probe the viability of a class action suit. I will discover what liability the individual directors have in regards to accountability of funds. I am also going to be asking what channels and process need to be followed for an audit of the MS accounts.
In my opinion the chat room is part and parcel of a package of services offered the paying membership. To remove a service may mean a breach of contract with the individual members. Are the directors prepared to dig into their pockets to reimburse the paying members a full or part portion of their fees? Is this the type of arbitrary and arrogant leadership we can expect from Mr. Tolson and this board in the future. We will talk further. Peace, Andrew

_________________________
there is no courage without anxiety

Top
#125942 - 01/27/04 02:02 AM Re: Chat room closing...
Yves Offline
Member

Registered: 11/26/03
Posts: 93
Loc: Canada
Bill, hear! hear!

Andrew, I respect your opinion, I just don't agree with it.

~Yves

_________________________
You know you love someone when you want them to be happy even though their happiness means you're not part of it. ~Author Unknown~

Top
#125943 - 01/27/04 02:03 AM Re: Chat room closing...
James_dup1 Offline


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
Well on the chat room closing......I want to know WHY!!!!!!!!! Why is it closing? Why didnt the "power's to be" tell us why at the time of the notice? These men are "sopose" to be experts on male abuse issues..then why wouldnt they know we dont like suprises. That we had enough of them in our lives and now this. It was the chat room here that gave me the courage to start my recovery..one of the men I met there is my best friend now. And I have met lots there I call friend. I mean how irresponable to post a closing date with nothing more PEROID END OF STORY. And they tell us as part of the "rules" here to be mindful of the feelings of other's. I really dont think the way they have done this is being very mindful of our feelings about the chat room and us wanting to know why it is closing. So come on board...tell us why...need more money? need a new server? To many using it? Not enough using it? No way to use the transcrits to help you publish more books? Just poor money management on the part of the new board? The new board just not like chat rooms so no one can? None of the above? All of the above? WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

_________________________
I have more issues than Rolling Stone!


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#125944 - 01/27/04 02:07 AM Re: Chat room closing...
James_dup1 Offline


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
Quote:
Is this the type of arbitrary and arrogant leadership we can expect from Mr. Tolson and this board in the future.
IF IT IS MAYBE WE NEED A NEW BOARD!!!!!!!!!! The 60's had Watergate.....We have Chatgate.....


_________________________
I have more issues than Rolling Stone!


Top
#125945 - 01/27/04 02:12 AM Re: Chat room closing...
James_dup1 Offline


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
I wonder how long before this gets locked?

_________________________
I have more issues than Rolling Stone!


Top
#125946 - 01/27/04 02:40 AM Re: Chat room closing...
Andrew Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/25/03
Posts: 1192
One thing I do know. Without reservation. The leadership of MS has shown a distinct lack of sensitivity. They have also exhibited poor business management. Perhaps they will tell us if there is a mechanism to call for their resignation and the election of a new board ???

Also can the leadership, tell us if anyone on the board has benefited from the research projects conducted using MS members as 'subjects', and has anyone on the directorship received government grants, research grants or similar as a result of their involvement with MS. Also what, if any, fees or expense accounts have been invoiced to MS by the directorship, at anytime in the past 3 years???
Thank you. Andrew

_________________________
there is no courage without anxiety

Top
#125947 - 01/27/04 02:46 AM Re: Chat room closing...
James_dup1 Offline


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
You know Andrew you bring up a good point. I have a question what is the Fay Honey Knopp Memorial Award? Why did Fred get it while being on the board?

_________________________
I have more issues than Rolling Stone!


Top
#125948 - 01/27/04 02:55 AM Re: Chat room closing...
James_dup1 Offline


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
Andrew I think I found the answer to your question. In the by-laws it says
Quote:
Section 7.4. Removal.

Any officer elected or appointed by the Board of Directors may be removed by the Board. In the case of the proposed removal of the President, the president elect shall Chair the Board Meeting.

Should read them. Here's the link....

http://www.malesurvivor.org/About%20Us/bylaws.htm

Missed this one when I was reading the by-laws....

Quote:
Section 5.6 Resignation and Removal.

A Director may resign at any time upon written notice to the Board of Directors. A resignation is effective when the notice is delivered unless the notice specifies a certain date. The pending vacancy may be filled before the effective date, but the successor shall not take office prior to such effective date. A Director may be removed with or without cause by the affirmative vote of two thirds (2/3) of the votes of the Members present and voted, either in person or by proxy at a duly held meeting.

There you go Andrew 2/3's of the voting member's.

_________________________
I have more issues than Rolling Stone!


Top
#125949 - 01/27/04 03:29 AM Re: Chat room closing...
rolling_is_life Offline
Member

Registered: 10/16/02
Posts: 53
Loc: Olympia, Washington
I think some ppl need to calm down a little bit because your kinda going off on some pretty radical tangents.

_________________________
"Ignoring mortality, we worship mediocrity" -Greg Graffin

"Live fast, die young, leave a great looking corpse" -Ronny Van Zant

Top
#125950 - 01/27/04 03:36 AM Re: Chat room closing...
Em Offline
Member

Registered: 01/19/04
Posts: 38
Loc: North East Ohio
I really hope that the powers that be here find a way to keep the chat room. I'm new here, and just in the early stages of recovery. Already MS has been very helpful and the advice and conversation with the gentlemen here has been important to me. The chat room is important.

It must not be taken away.


Top
#125951 - 01/27/04 07:33 AM Re: Chat room closing...
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Guys,
I've just logged on and seen this topic, and at the moment I know nothing more than you do. But when I get some answers I will give you them.

Until then all I ask is that the discussion be kept as 'decent' as possible. I certainly don't want to close it if it gets personal and angry.

But PLEASE continue to state your views.

And if we can keep the subject in just this topic it will help as well, the people that have an interest will just have to look in one place.

Thanks for your support.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#125952 - 01/27/04 08:57 AM Re: Chat room closing...
crisispoint Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 2154
Loc: Massachusetts
This is wrong, just plain wrong.

Tolson and the rest of the bean counters need to be aware that this service saves lives! I haven't been on all that much, but it has saved my life and it could possible cost someone I care very much about theirs. If there's no immediacy, then this person has no way to immediately communicate should he come back.

Once again, I am disappointed in this site. Not the brothers or the sisters, but with the people who make the decisions.

Brothers and sisters, anyone who gave to their emergency fund (and whose initial news pop-ups caused, in my opinion, unnecessary mental stress to some of us with their dire warnings of closing down the site), demand your money back if they go through with this plan. I fully intend to get a refund of my membership dues if they close chat down.

Another betrayal, again by those who I thought were my friends, my family. \:\(

Are you listening, Board, President, Tolson?

Scot

_________________________
There are reasons I'm taking medication. They're called "other people." - Me, displaying my anti-social tendancies

fromacuriousmind.blogspot.com
malehurtandsurvive.blogspot.com

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#125953 - 01/27/04 09:14 AM Re: Chat room closing...
crisispoint Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 2154
Loc: Massachusetts
I should hasten to point out that my anger and sense of betrayal isn't with the brothers or sisters here, including moderators, TallSteve or anyone else who is doing their job. You guys are great.

Hang together and get this decision reversed!

Scot

_________________________
There are reasons I'm taking medication. They're called "other people." - Me, displaying my anti-social tendancies

fromacuriousmind.blogspot.com
malehurtandsurvive.blogspot.com

Top
#125954 - 01/27/04 09:59 AM Re: Chat room closing...
James_dup1 Offline


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
Loydy,
I think you've said it best "I've just logged on and seen this topic, and at the moment I know nothing more than you do." I can only speak for me but this is where my anger is coming from. That this would be posted with no more information given. Not to us, not to the chat admin, not to the chat mod's, not to any of the mod's, not to anyone..just "Hey by the way we are closeing the chat room" Sorry if you feel I'm getting personal, but I feel that it is irresponable of the board to make this discion and then not give us any reason as to why. NOTHING Loydy....nothing at all.....So does that make me angey....yes it does....ofcourse we are going to wonder whats going on. This place has saved my life alowd me to find a place to heal and given me a chance to met some of the best people I've ever had the privilage of knowing. And up to this point I have always thought the Board was doing a great job running things. But to post a date for us to lose the chat room with no posting as to why? :rolleyes:

James

_________________________
I have more issues than Rolling Stone!


Top
#125955 - 01/27/04 11:05 AM Re: Chat room closing...
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Guys I am in the same position as Dave. I would ask, like Dave, that you continue to express your thoughts in a pro active manner. I will also find out what is going on.

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

Top
#125956 - 01/27/04 11:13 AM Re: Chat room closing...
phoster Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/21/03
Posts: 758
Loc: ohio
look MS just went through a funds drive to keep going as it is. if too much comes out of this, we may loose it all together. this site has been a great help to me, and i would hate to be without it.

i am sorry we are loosing the chatroom, but this is still a very valuable resource. i would hate to see it shutdown. if all the members withdraw thier support over this, that is where we are headed. i think we need to consider the other side for a moment. it would take a lot of time and effort to moderate and run this site. i am sure it is a completely voluntary one, and we need to recognize their effort.

_________________________
compassion is a light even to the darkest soul

Top
#125957 - 01/27/04 11:28 AM Re: Chat room closing...
Andrew Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/25/03
Posts: 1192
Now that it has become apparent that even the moderators have no idea what is going on, I think it is very clear that Fred Tolson has lost sight of what MS is all about. It is for the survivors, including the moderators. The leadership of MS needs to come from the men, not one man running the board.

I formally ask for Fred Tolson's resignation effective immediately.

Andrew

_________________________
there is no courage without anxiety

Top
#125958 - 01/27/04 11:48 AM Re: Chat room closing...
James_dup1 Offline


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
There is a motion on the floor is there a second?

_________________________
I have more issues than Rolling Stone!


Top
#125959 - 01/27/04 12:07 PM Re: Chat room closing...
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Guys please continue to express your thoughts about the chat room. But please lets not attack anyone in the process. I appreciate where you are all coming from I really do.

Personally I think it may be a generation thing. I am well aware that young people have grown up with chat and for many it is the preferred method of communication. I have a 23 year old daughter and she and her friends have been using chatrooms ever since we got a computer at home several years ago.
I do know that sometimes in chat that the thing that we miss is not what is said but the manner in which it is said and the person's posture when saying it. And there is also the danger of chat being used by some with less than honourable intentions but they are quickly weeded out.

I and David will keep you informed.

Thank you for your cooperation my brothers.

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

Top
#125960 - 01/27/04 12:15 PM Re: Chat room closing...
Andrew Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/25/03
Posts: 1192
Mike I have the highest regard for your opinions.
However, the issue here is greater than the loss of the chat room. It is an attitudinal problem that stems from our leadership. They have absolutely no understanding or consideration of process. They are acting like fascist dictators rather than caring and benevolent counsellors and mentors. Peace, Andrew

_________________________
there is no courage without anxiety

Top
#125961 - 01/27/04 12:49 PM Re: Chat room closing...
James_dup1 Offline


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
Mike,
With all due respect man.....asking for Fred to step down isnt a personal attact in any shape or form. Read the by-laws set by the Board. If the member's are not happy with the leader ship they can ask the voting members to remove someone. That's all that is being done now. following the by-laws posted here. Andrew made a motion to remove Fred...as a paying member (which by the by-laws makes him able to vote on matter's like this). I'm not a member or I would second the motion and then we could move to the discustion stag of the motion. So all that is being done is following the guidlines set by the Board on matter's just like this. If noone seconds the motion then it will go away.....or is someone does second it and 2/3's of the voting memeber's done vote "yes" then it will go away. But with Andrew being a voting member he has the right to bring a motion to the floor and if he does it's not a personal attact it's excerising his right's as a member of MS. Im sorry you dont see it that way and feel that by asking for Fred to step down we are attacting Fred as a person. All that is being done is using the guidlines set forth in the by-laws. Thats why the by-laws were put in place and why they are posted for all to read, so we know how to handle things just like this.
James

_________________________
I have more issues than Rolling Stone!


Top
#125962 - 01/27/04 01:14 PM Re: Chat room closing...
Bill_1965 Offline
Chat Mod Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 1983
Loc: Flint, Michigan
I am withholding judgement on President Tolson and the rest of the Board, until the facts are in. Until then, everything is just seculation and emotions running amok.

It is a great tragety that the Chat Room is set to close. I, as all you you, would like to know the reason for this decission. I feel that the board wouldn't have done it with out much deliberation. But moreover, I would like an explaination on why it was done the way is was. Hanging a "Closing" sign on the entrance, without any explaination. Even at the corner store, when they hang the "Closing" sign they let you know why. With this being a organization, with some paying members. Some explaination is deserved and warranted. The lack of such explainations is quite contrary to the well-being of MS and its members and guests.

Bill

_________________________
Pain is Temporary; Quitting lasts Forever. - Lance Armstrong

Top
#125963 - 01/27/04 01:28 PM Re: Chat room closing...
Andrew Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/25/03
Posts: 1192
Bill,
As Harry Truman used to say: "The buck stops here."
Fred Tolson is the boss. Our finances have been amok with cash calls and panic. Now chat is being closed without explanation and process. He is the boss. The buck stops at his desk. He needs to resign. End of story. Peace, Andrew

_________________________
there is no courage without anxiety

Top
#125964 - 01/27/04 01:52 PM Re: Chat room closing...
Bill_1965 Offline
Chat Mod Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 1983
Loc: Flint, Michigan
Yes Andrew, the buck stops at Fred Tolson,

My questions here, and in "Ask the Board", still remains:

What is the reason for the closing of the chat room?

More over, Why hasn't the Board posted reason for its closing?

and now, With all this discussion going on, why hasn't President Tolson and the Board replied as of yet?

Patiently (for the time being) awaiting reply,
Bill

_________________________
Pain is Temporary; Quitting lasts Forever. - Lance Armstrong

Top
#125965 - 01/27/04 01:57 PM Re: Chat room closing...
crisispoint Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 2154
Loc: Massachusetts
Mike, Lloydy, et. al.,

I agree with everyone else here. It's NOT personal to demand accountability from those who, by all appearences, made an arbitrary and unexplained decision that has an impact on many of the brothers and sisters here, both dues-paying and non.

We went through an effort to save this site, and it seems they are trying to disassemble it, bit by bit. I demand, DEMAND! an explanation, otherwise we should demand a refund of dues and monies raised. It appears that is wasn't well spent.

It isn't personal to demand accountability. It's the fair thing for all involved to ask for.

Listening, all you decision-makers? It's called dessent (sp?). The next step is to see if you've breached your contract with the dues-payers. Think you needed money before? Try needing it after we ask for refunds for breach-of-faith.

Fight for your rights!

Scot

_________________________
There are reasons I'm taking medication. They're called "other people." - Me, displaying my anti-social tendancies

fromacuriousmind.blogspot.com
malehurtandsurvive.blogspot.com

Top
#125966 - 01/27/04 01:58 PM Re: Chat room closing...
James_dup1 Offline


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
Yes Bill where is the board with the reasons? Fred in Co. which means it's 11am there. Almost half the day gone and nothing from the leadership. No wonder Andrew is calling for him to step down. I'm sure they are aware of this thread and all the questions Im sure they have gotten the email from the mods' who they have kept in the dark about as well. So Where are they?
James

_________________________
I have more issues than Rolling Stone!


Top
#125967 - 01/27/04 01:59 PM Re: Chat room closing...
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
I see your point Gentlemen.

I think that Fred my have inherited the deficit because it did not happen when he was President.

Before we brand anyone I think it is only fair that some explanation be given. I wonder if anyone of us know the true history of MaleSurvivor and where it originated. I did not until about 5 minutes ago and I would really appreciate it if this could be made public knowledge.

So please just bear with it for a bit. The way it was handled was extreme and with little consideration is a given. But I have been guilty of acting in haste without the knowledge of all the facts many times in my life. The biggest one was not seeking the input of another counsellor so many years ago.

We will be aprised of the facts I am sure about that

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

Top
#125968 - 01/27/04 02:00 PM Re: Chat room closing...
Andrew Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/25/03
Posts: 1192
Gentlemen, this morning I got a legal opinion as to whether there has been a breach of contract to the paying membership of MS as a result of the chatroom service being closed. I have been told there is not a breach of same. The reason given is that there was never a promise about specific services being maintained. What was promised or offered is as follows:
Quote:
Benefits of Membership

Discounts on Conference registration fees.
Member Directory.
Free listing for professional members in our Directory of Therapists & Other Practioners.
Networking opportunities with professionals, including other sexual abuse survivors.
Quarterly Newsletter.
Quick access to timely information for members through this Web site.
The personal satisfaction of knowing that you are part of an extensive effort to support male survivors, educate others, and gain valuable new skills to help in your professional practice.
Membership Information
We do not sell, loan or rent out our membership information to anyone. Please read our privacy statement.
We hope you support what we're doing and want to join us. And if you have the time, we invite you to join a committee or two.
A limited number of no cost "sweat equity" memberships are available to those who are disabled, unemployed or experiencing financial hardship. These no-cost memberships are available in exchange for specific volunteer work with MaleSurvivor and on a limited basis. Contact member services for more information
So it seems that our legal recourse is limited as the chatroom was never specifically mentioned.

However, according to section 5.8 of the bylaws, as a voting member, I can ask for a division of the house, and at that time the board has to tell me how each member voted, and which board members voted to close the chat room and which ones voted no. I also have the right to see the tran>
_________________________
there is no courage without anxiety

Top
#125969 - 01/27/04 02:11 PM Re: Chat room closing...
James_dup1 Offline


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
Yes Mike I have read the history. Have you read the bio's on the list of the Board member's? They have enough letter's combined to chock a can of abc soup. You would think with all them degree's that one of them would have said "You know maybe we should tell the guys why we are doing this." I relize that may be a streach after all I dont have any letter's after my name but Jr. I dont have books about dealing with male sexual abuse I've not been quoted in the NY Times or on Dateline. So what do I know..Im just an uneducated Okie....

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>FOR THE BOARD<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
There has been a request for a divistion of the house and a call to list how each member voted as well as a copy of the tran>
_________________________
I have more issues than Rolling Stone!


Top
#125970 - 01/27/04 02:18 PM Re: Chat room closing...
crisispoint Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 2154
Loc: Massachusetts
Mike,

I know what you're saying, but those that run this site are supposedly experts on this subject, particularly about betrayal of trust.

Seems they did that, no? And with no explanation besides.

I demand accountability. Who was the "expert" who made this decision, and what was their rationale?

I ain't hiding behind an announcement. I'm putting my name here. They should take a lesson from it.

Scot Carr

_________________________
There are reasons I'm taking medication. They're called "other people." - Me, displaying my anti-social tendancies

fromacuriousmind.blogspot.com
malehurtandsurvive.blogspot.com

Top
#125971 - 01/27/04 02:20 PM Re: Chat room closing...
James_dup1 Offline


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
Well now there's a motion and a second for the board to answer to this matter. So now it's the board's turn. Let's see how this new leadership deals with it.
James

_________________________
I have more issues than Rolling Stone!


Top
#125972 - 01/27/04 02:25 PM Re: Chat room closing...
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
My brothers I beg you to wait to hear something from the Board. It is tearing me apart to see what is going on at this time. We are all here to heal and I am so fearful that this will have an adverse effect on many of us in our healing. I know it has for me and I am questioning my own sense of self worth again. Not at all rational but there it is.

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

Top
#125973 - 01/27/04 02:29 PM Re: Chat room closing...
James_dup1 Offline


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
Mike,
Im sorry this is bothering you like this. You bring up a good point. We are here to heal...Scot also brings up a good point on betrayal of trust. What the board as done is betray us. How many emails have you sent to them asking whats going on? How many replys have you gotten back? How can we use this as a place to heal if we cant trust the ones who are in charge of keeping us safe?
James

_________________________
I have more issues than Rolling Stone!


Top
#125974 - 01/27/04 02:31 PM Re: Chat room closing...
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Here is the history I was referring to. He is the first survivor to be President of MS.

Fred Tolson is a survivor and in 1990 founded Men Assisting, Leading & Educating (MALE), a nonprofit organization dedicated to healing male survivors of sexual abuse. MALE published the newsletter, Men's Issues Forum and provided the first national 800 support number for male survivors. MALE was the first survivor organization to include victims and offenders in its mission. MALE held it's first survivor conference in Denver, CO in 1995 and merged with NOMSV (now MaleSurvivor) at the Sixth World Interdisciplinary Conference in Columbus, OH.

"I believe one of our most important missions in preventing the sexual abuse of males is by working to prevent all forms of sexual victimization. We do this through public education, advocating treatment for victims and perpetrators, and offering our voices and experience to those developing prevention programs."

Fred has presented at numerous national conferences and workshops about the sexual abuse of males and the treatment of sexual offenders. He also provides specialized clinical services to sexual offenders. Fred was the editor of Sexual Crimes and Research and Victim Resources and Support for the Netscape/Mozilla Open Directory Project and is the author of "Be Silent No Longer", a booklet for adolescent male survivors.

He is the Director of the Community Supervision Program (CSP) for Sexual Offense Resource Services in Denver, CO. The CSP provides community based supervision and computer forensics for parole/probation departments and private agencies. Fred developed the CMCS software program for the clinical management and community supervision of offenders.

He served on the advisory board of Stop Prison Rape, a national organization dealing with rape in confinement and the board of directors of the Colorado Coalition Against Sexual Assault. He is the Webmaster for MaleSurvivor: NOMSV and served on the MaleSurvivor Board of Directors from 1998-2001. In 2003 Fred was re-elected to the MaleSurvivor Board of Directors.

So please give him a chance to respond.

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

Top
#125975 - 01/27/04 02:35 PM Re: Chat room closing...
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Maybe, just maybe they are trying to keep the youngest and most vulnerable safe.

I can see both sides of the argument. All I am asking is to wait for an explanation which I am sure is fortcoming

Love to you all my brothers

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

Top
#125976 - 01/27/04 02:45 PM Re: Chat room closing...
James_dup1 Offline


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
How long do we wait Mike? The end of the day? The end of the month? The year? The next retreat? How long should we wait before we demand answers? How many "young" people have been in the chat room and not kept safe by the mod's of the chat.Thad and Steve work very hard at keeping it a safe place for us to chat. I know your not saying they dont Mike and Im by means trying to say you are. But how long should we wait.
James

_________________________
I have more issues than Rolling Stone!


Top
#125977 - 01/27/04 03:08 PM Re: Chat room closing...
Andrew Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/25/03
Posts: 1192
Mike & James, the issue of whether very young men
are protected in chat or even on the Discussion Board is a whole different issue. But it is a very big issue and one that needs to be addressed honestly (but I doubt very much it will be), and in fact has been hidden under the table for as long as I've been here. But even if this was the reason for the closing of chat, it doesn't excuse the process that was taken. Peace, Andrew

_________________________
there is no courage without anxiety

Top
#125978 - 01/27/04 03:09 PM Re: Chat room closing...
markgreyblue Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 5400
Loc: Pasadena, CA
this is confusing - we just had a big fundraising drive - we were told it was succesful and now our membership fees and donations are being misappropritated in a way not previously disclosed -
the attractiveness of this site was the chat room which was a health bringing element to the me - crucially -
this is not a useful or productive step -
this seems - smacks of misrepresentation -

it is very hurtful - and i would like more information - as of now - this move seems
abusive -
please explain - we need information -

hurt mgb

_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



Top
#125979 - 01/27/04 03:10 PM Re: Chat room closing...
James_dup1 Offline


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
I see Richard was here and still nothing.

_________________________
I have more issues than Rolling Stone!


Top
#125980 - 01/27/04 03:27 PM Re: Chat room closing...
crisispoint Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 2154
Loc: Massachusetts
Mikey,

I'm sorry this is hurting you. It's hurting me, man. This is a betrayal, and I can't see it any other way.

I know how you feel, but it would go a long way to at least HEAR an explanation from them.

I agree with James. ACCOUNTABILITY NOW!!!!!

Scot Carr

_________________________
There are reasons I'm taking medication. They're called "other people." - Me, displaying my anti-social tendancies

fromacuriousmind.blogspot.com
malehurtandsurvive.blogspot.com

Top
#125981 - 01/27/04 03:30 PM Re: Chat room closing...
Bill_1965 Offline
Chat Mod Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 1983
Loc: Flint, Michigan
James,

In defense of Richard Gartner, he has responded prior to your post. And he has apologized for there not having been an explanation about closing the chat room. And agrees that we deserve one. Fred Tolson is preparing a statement about it and should have it posted within a day or two. He further requests that we do not take the lack of quick response as a betrayal of trust.

So everybody, please calm down. It is unfortunate that the Board had to come to the decision to close the chatroom, but before we all act out of anger and without the facts, let's wait until the offical announcement is made.

Thank you,
Bill

_________________________
Pain is Temporary; Quitting lasts Forever. - Lance Armstrong

Top
#125982 - 01/27/04 03:36 PM Re: Chat room closing...
Andrew Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/25/03
Posts: 1192
It doesn't take a day or two to issue an official response. Secondly, Richard is quite capable of clueing us in as to what the hell is happening.
Very cavalier of him to imply that a day or two of waiting is reasonable. ... Andrew

_________________________
there is no courage without anxiety

Top
#125983 - 01/27/04 03:37 PM Re: Chat room closing...
James_dup1 Offline


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
Im sorry I dont see anything by Richard on the board. Guess I missed it. As for a day or two...please...they knew they were going to close the chat room why not have something ready at the time of the posting it? This men are the best of the best on male sexual abuse issues. If it is going to take a day or two to prepare a statement then why not wait a day or two to on the closing? I mean I'm just an uneducated Okie and dont have a Phd in anything but I would have seen that posting a closes date with nothing more would upset those of us that use the chat room.
James

_________________________
I have more issues than Rolling Stone!


Top
#125984 - 01/27/04 03:39 PM Re: Chat room closing...
Bill_1965 Offline
Chat Mod Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 1983
Loc: Flint, Michigan
The response from Richard Gartner is in the Member's Forum, Ask the Board.

I respectfully remind all that may post there, that forum is for questions to the Board and is not for Ranting, no matter how founded it may be. So, please respect the purpose of that board.

MaleSurvivor means too much to me to watch it be torn apart. Please refrain from making a harsh and rash judgement prior to hearing the facts.

With all respect,
Bill

_________________________
Pain is Temporary; Quitting lasts Forever. - Lance Armstrong

Top
#125985 - 01/27/04 03:40 PM Re: Chat room closing...
Andrew Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/25/03
Posts: 1192
James, Richard's response is in the Ask the Board forum. No doubt posted there so that he could hide his embarrassment for such a feeble answer. Hardly anyone goes there. Andrew

_________________________
there is no courage without anxiety

Top
#125986 - 01/27/04 03:41 PM Re: Chat room closing...
crisispoint Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 2154
Loc: Massachusetts
There is no excuse for this. Regrettably, what they have done IS a betrayal. No explanation, and delaying it until AFTER the chat room is closed is inexcusable.

ACCOUNTABILITY NOW! NOT IN A DAY OR TWO!

Scot Carr

_________________________
There are reasons I'm taking medication. They're called "other people." - Me, displaying my anti-social tendancies

fromacuriousmind.blogspot.com
malehurtandsurvive.blogspot.com

Top
#125987 - 01/27/04 03:43 PM Re: Chat room closing...
Andrew Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/25/03
Posts: 1192
I'm totally with you on this one Scot. The board and Fred Tolson in particular have shown a total lack of regard for the membership. Somehow I'm not surprised. Peace, Andrew

_________________________
there is no courage without anxiety

Top
#125988 - 01/27/04 03:57 PM Re: Chat room closing...
Bill_1965 Offline
Chat Mod Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 1983
Loc: Flint, Michigan
I see some rants, justified, on the Ask The Board Forum. Please reserve that Forum for Questions for the board. Yes we are angry, but let's show some dequorum. Hopefully, they will soon respond to all the questions asked of them.

Please keep it civil,
Bill

_________________________
Pain is Temporary; Quitting lasts Forever. - Lance Armstrong

Top
#125989 - 01/27/04 04:07 PM Re: Chat room closing...
Andrew Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/25/03
Posts: 1192
Bill, I totally understand your reasons for wanting decorum and civility. However, I don't feel that too much of the responsibility for this escalating situation should be put on the membership. The directorship/board has not been forthcoming and this leads to suspicion and distrust. It has been my experience in life that when an answer cannot be given quickly and honestly, it is usually because there is something to hide. So I ask, what is the board hiding? Andrew

_________________________
there is no courage without anxiety

Top
#125990 - 01/27/04 04:21 PM Re: Chat room closing...
Bill_1965 Offline
Chat Mod Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 1983
Loc: Flint, Michigan
Andrew and All,

I am requesting that the Ask The Board Forum remain that. A place to ask the Board questions.

I do believe that President Tolson and the rest of the Board owes its membership and guests an explaination. And that it sould be sooner than later. I have asked them to post something as soon as possible. They no doubt had good reason to close the chat, and I believe that they did labor over that decision. But they HAVE left us dangling here without explaination, that in itself requires explaination.

Until the board responds to us, there is little that we can respond to. I hope that they provide a complete explaination, not just the rationale. An explaination of the reason for not giving a reason with the notice of closing is NEEDED. The reason for the delay in responding to the membership is NEEDED. But until then, what more can be said than that.

Personal attacks on the Board Members will not acheive anything, except poor feelings. Just because our feelings were not, and still are not being, considered; does not mean that we should do the same. Think about that, please. We all have been victimized, and this may well be bringing those feelings out again. But don't take it further than that. Yes, DEMAND an explaination, but do not force one. Let cooler minds prevail.

Bill

_________________________
Pain is Temporary; Quitting lasts Forever. - Lance Armstrong

Top
#125991 - 01/27/04 04:25 PM Re: Chat room closing...
Andrew Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/25/03
Posts: 1192
Very good Bill. And when they close the Discussion Board, perhaps you will believe that they deserve the benefit of the doubt. We have gone from financial crisis to crisis of confidence. Andrew

_________________________
there is no courage without anxiety

Top
#125992 - 01/27/04 04:30 PM Re: Chat room closing...
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
To err is human. To forgive is also human. God we all did that in our survival. Can we not accept that in others.

I am truly sorry this had been handled the way that it has been by both sides of the issue.

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

Top
#125993 - 01/27/04 04:47 PM Re: Chat room closing...
Andrew Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/25/03
Posts: 1192
I'm not sure what we are being asked to forgive Mike. So far our board has not responded to us.
As even the moderators are being kept in the dark, perhaps they need to re-evaluate their worth to the board, as they seem to be getting about as much respect as the general membership. \:\(
Welcome to the great unwashed Mikey, we always liked you. \:\) Peace, Andrew

_________________________
there is no courage without anxiety

Top
#125994 - 01/27/04 05:08 PM Re: Chat room closing...
rolling_is_life Offline
Member

Registered: 10/16/02
Posts: 53
Loc: Olympia, Washington


_________________________
"Ignoring mortality, we worship mediocrity" -Greg Graffin

"Live fast, die young, leave a great looking corpse" -Ronny Van Zant

Top
#125995 - 01/27/04 05:29 PM Re: Chat room closing...
survive75 Offline
Member

Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 304
Loc: Massachusetts
I am sad to see the Chat Room close down too. And to just put an announcement that final and that dramatic with no explanation on the site was truly wrong.

Mikey and Lloydy - thanks for talking us through this, even though you don't have the answers right now. The only thing I am confused on is why, even if it was a safety or protection issue, they would choose to shut it down without trying to remedy the problem? And if it was monetary, I would like to know why appropriating funding for it would be so difficult or unreachable?

Just my questions. I hope that they change their minds or work to find a solution. It would be a sad loss to this site to lose chat as a resource.

-Sean

_________________________
-Sean

"Even though I know/I don’t want to know/Yeah I guess I know/I just hate how it sounds"

Top
#125996 - 01/27/04 05:38 PM Re: Chat room closing...
crisispoint Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 2154
Loc: Massachusetts
Mikey & Lloydy,

I apologize if I hurt you guys. Certainly you don't deserve it, and if other folks have taken it to that level, that's wrong. You are the good guys in this.

But to those who have made this decision, THEY deserve my contempt. They deserve ALL of our contempt.

I will try to keep things civil, but I am hurt and angry. If they are reading this post (and why the hell should they? They've done an excellent job of hiding from us), you owe us an explanation.

NEVER AGAIN!

Scot Carr

_________________________
There are reasons I'm taking medication. They're called "other people." - Me, displaying my anti-social tendancies

fromacuriousmind.blogspot.com
malehurtandsurvive.blogspot.com

Top
#125997 - 01/27/04 05:45 PM Re: Chat room closing...
rolling_is_life Offline
Member

Registered: 10/16/02
Posts: 53
Loc: Olympia, Washington


_________________________
"Ignoring mortality, we worship mediocrity" -Greg Graffin

"Live fast, die young, leave a great looking corpse" -Ronny Van Zant

Top
#125998 - 01/27/04 05:47 PM Re: Chat room closing...
crisispoint Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 2154
Loc: Massachusetts
P.S. Bill, I know and appreciate your call for civility. However, how civil were they?

To quote from the movie "Seven," sometimes tapping someone on the shoulder isn't enough to get someone's attention. If you hit someone over the head with a hammer, Then, i find, you have their complete attention.

They hit us first. Time to hit back.

Scot

_________________________
There are reasons I'm taking medication. They're called "other people." - Me, displaying my anti-social tendancies

fromacuriousmind.blogspot.com
malehurtandsurvive.blogspot.com

Top
#125999 - 01/27/04 05:49 PM Re: Chat room closing...
crisispoint Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 2154
Loc: Massachusetts
Andrew and Rolling,

P.P.S., there is NO reason to attack each other, people. Save it for those who deserve it, not the brothers who've been hurt.

Take it out on them, please!

Scot

_________________________
There are reasons I'm taking medication. They're called "other people." - Me, displaying my anti-social tendancies

fromacuriousmind.blogspot.com
malehurtandsurvive.blogspot.com

Top
#126000 - 01/27/04 05:55 PM Re: Chat room closing...
rolling_is_life Offline
Member

Registered: 10/16/02
Posts: 53
Loc: Olympia, Washington


_________________________
"Ignoring mortality, we worship mediocrity" -Greg Graffin

"Live fast, die young, leave a great looking corpse" -Ronny Van Zant

Top
#126001 - 01/27/04 06:02 PM Re: Chat room closing...
rolling_is_life Offline
Member

Registered: 10/16/02
Posts: 53
Loc: Olympia, Washington


_________________________
"Ignoring mortality, we worship mediocrity" -Greg Graffin

"Live fast, die young, leave a great looking corpse" -Ronny Van Zant

Top
#126002 - 01/27/04 06:03 PM Re: Chat room closing...
crisispoint Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 2154
Loc: Massachusetts
Hey, both of you!

No more of this s**t! save your anger for those who really deserve it. This isn't one-upmanship, who-hurt-who grade school! You BOTH are valuable. You BOTH have been victimized. Don't victimize each other.

Remember WE'RE better than that, ALL OF US!

Be better!

Scot

_________________________
There are reasons I'm taking medication. They're called "other people." - Me, displaying my anti-social tendancies

fromacuriousmind.blogspot.com
malehurtandsurvive.blogspot.com

Top
#126003 - 01/27/04 06:05 PM Re: Chat room closing...
crisispoint Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 2154
Loc: Massachusetts
One other thing, Rolling, do NOT threaten anyone else here physically or otherwise or I will report you. There is none of that crap here, you dig?

You say you're mature? Act it.

All of us, okay?

Take it down a notch and save it for those who earned it.

Scot

_________________________
There are reasons I'm taking medication. They're called "other people." - Me, displaying my anti-social tendancies

fromacuriousmind.blogspot.com
malehurtandsurvive.blogspot.com

Top
#126004 - 01/27/04 06:09 PM Re: Chat room closing...
rolling_is_life Offline
Member

Registered: 10/16/02
Posts: 53
Loc: Olympia, Washington


_________________________
"Ignoring mortality, we worship mediocrity" -Greg Graffin

"Live fast, die young, leave a great looking corpse" -Ronny Van Zant

Top
#126005 - 01/27/04 06:12 PM Re: Chat room closing...
crisispoint Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 2154
Loc: Massachusetts
It's obvious people can't refrain from hurting each other, and I include myself in that crowd.

Moderators, Mikey and Lloydy, perhaps we should close this thread until we've all cooled down a tad.

Everyone I hurt, unintentionally, I'm sorry.

Let peace come back. Bill's right.

Please, let's all calm down.

Scot

_________________________
There are reasons I'm taking medication. They're called "other people." - Me, displaying my anti-social tendancies

fromacuriousmind.blogspot.com
malehurtandsurvive.blogspot.com

Top
#126006 - 01/27/04 06:15 PM Re: Chat room closing...
rolling_is_life Offline
Member

Registered: 10/16/02
Posts: 53
Loc: Olympia, Washington


_________________________
"Ignoring mortality, we worship mediocrity" -Greg Graffin

"Live fast, die young, leave a great looking corpse" -Ronny Van Zant

Top
#126007 - 01/27/04 06:19 PM Re: Chat room closing...
Fred Tolson Offline
Past President
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 375
Loc: Denver, CO
Dear MS Members,

The Board of Directors recognizes and appreciates the many contributions and tireless efforts of Thad and “tallsteve”. Our decision was certainly not a reflection upon their abilities or commitment. We began the discussion to close the chat room about one year ago. This decision was not a “knee jerk” reaction to anything. It was instead a thoughtful, deliberate and difficult decision arrived at by each member of the board.

This isn’t about our “image”. Quite the contrary, the board has a fiduciary responsibility and more importantly a sacred responsibility to anyone who comes to this site to answer just one question. “Is it safe?” The answer must be yes and we must be prepared to do whatever is necessary to provide this answer. The liability associated with operating any program including the chat room is ever present. It is not enough to say we have posted a warning or several pages of guidelines when or if someone is harmed. The "facts" of our efforts would be lost in the public outcry of why we provided a chat room that has been misused and brought harm to vulnerable people.

On many occasions we have talked to users about setting boundaries and posted appropriate use guidelines on the Chat Room page. In spite of our efforts there are those determined to abuse our members and guests and ignore our guidelines. Given the real time nature of a Chat Room it is very difficult to control this behavior or assure the safety of our users.

As you know, MS is experiencing financial hardship. At this time we cannot afford to purchase hosting or software that would provide you and us a safer alternative. As volunteers all of our energies are focused upon rebuilding and restructuring MS and having to make painful cutbacks.

Our history is rich with lively debate and disagreements and I’m sure this decision will not be an exception. We do understand how few the resources are for survivors and more importantly the many friendships some of you have established with others in the Chat Room. This discussion board provides a safe and supportive place to continue old friendships and make new ones.

I apologize for not being able to respond to you sooner and for the lack of an explanation when the notice was posted.


Top
#126008 - 01/27/04 06:35 PM Re: Chat room closing...
James_dup1 Offline


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
Well I would like to start by saying sorry to adding to the crap in this thread. I should have been able to express my feeling in a more construve manner. So once more Im sorry.

Fred,
I'm still a little confused as to your reason's. I just want to make sure I understand. The reason's are because 1) There isnt a way to keep it safe at this point. 2) No money to keep it open. Like I said please forgive for not understanding the reasons you posted. The money thing .......ok understandalbe.....The keeping safe though I'm not sure about..how is the chat room not safe? And if it is a money thing how much is needed to keep it open? You say there's no money to buy a program to run a "safe" chat room. How much is needed? Why not go back to the "chat space" format we had a few years ago? I know that in that program the host can ban someone's ip address so that would keep it safer.
James

_________________________
I have more issues than Rolling Stone!


Top
#126009 - 01/27/04 06:38 PM Re: Chat room closing...
crisispoint Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 2154
Loc: Massachusetts
I have responded to this lukewarm travesty of an announcement to President Tolsen, and am reconsidering my membership.

If I choose to leave, I will ask for a refund and suggest every member do the same.

If this is about money, let's show them how much we value it, since they tend to put it more above us. Take a look at this thread and they should see the damage they've done.

I said it in my PM to the President, he and the board should be ashamed of themselves.

All the moderators and administrators, you are innocent in this, and I hold you in high esteem, as I do all the brothers and sisters, but I'm ashamed of the board and the president.

Scot Carr

_________________________
There are reasons I'm taking medication. They're called "other people." - Me, displaying my anti-social tendancies

fromacuriousmind.blogspot.com
malehurtandsurvive.blogspot.com

Top
#126010 - 01/27/04 06:51 PM Re: Chat room closing...
Andrew Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/25/03
Posts: 1192
Rolling, I apologize for taking my anger out on you in some of my PMs. I was intemperate in my responses to you. I will also be removing my postings to you. Obviously my anger and frustration was directed at the Board, and you got in the firing line, not your fault; worse yet, it seems that there is nothing we can do, we were kept completely out of the decision making process. Peace, Andrew

_________________________
there is no courage without anxiety

Top
#126011 - 01/27/04 07:23 PM Re: Chat room closing...
James_dup1 Offline


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
I'm very disapointed in the answer we got from the Board. It didnt really answer anything or at least in my mind. We did get an apoligy for not being told the reasons for them doing this sooner but they never told us why we had to ask. And it was something more like someone running for office trying to side step an issue (imho). We asked some very direct questions and didnt get a direct answer to them. Sorry not trying to keep this going I just want answer's to the question's asked.
James

_________________________
I have more issues than Rolling Stone!


Top
#126012 - 01/27/04 07:36 PM Re: Chat room closing...
Andrew Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/25/03
Posts: 1192
I honestly don't think we're going to get the answers James. This is a very autocratic board.
There are so many reasons for keeping the chat room open. So many people at MS really depend on it and it is a medium that many guys feel comfortable in. Unfortunately, it seems, there are some bad seeds that have spoiled it for everyone. People aren't always what they claim to be. Legitimate young people have been hurt and presumed survivors have been anything but ...
I'm not sure what the answers are, but I sure as hell hate the process that was (wasn't) taken to get here. I am once again disappointed in our leadership. It seems to me that the one major problem seems to be authentication of members. People claim to be whatever they want and take advantage of the vulnerability of others. We had a very famous situation like this about 18 months ago. Obviously it has happened again in some way. Perhaps there needs to be a way to verify who people are before they are allowed to anonymously use the chat and discussion boards. I would feel comfortable with that mechanism. It might cut our membership in half or less, but so be it. It might also be an idea to turn the MS services into a pay per service organization with a free 30 day trial period, that might solve the money problems. Peace, Andrew

_________________________
there is no courage without anxiety

Top
#126013 - 01/27/04 07:58 PM Re: Chat room closing...
rolling_is_life Offline
Member

Registered: 10/16/02
Posts: 53
Loc: Olympia, Washington
I 2 appologize for my anger getting the best of me. Me and u andrew should talk some time to further work things out.

-Keith

_________________________
"Ignoring mortality, we worship mediocrity" -Greg Graffin

"Live fast, die young, leave a great looking corpse" -Ronny Van Zant

Top
#126014 - 01/27/04 08:20 PM Re: Chat room closing...
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
I've edited some posts out, more tonight than I've done since I've been here I think !

I don't like doing it, but the argument isn't between US - like I said in the other topic, we've had enough crap as kids without dishing it out to each other as adults.

So please stick to the story guys, use your enthusiasm to make your arguments and positions stronger.

Andrew and Rolling, Thanks to both of you for calming down. I know this is an emotional subject and it's easy to get wound up, and it's good that you both see that you are actually on the same side.

Thanks
Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#126015 - 01/27/04 08:57 PM Re: Chat room closing...
Bill_1965 Offline
Chat Mod Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 1983
Loc: Flint, Michigan
Thank you President Fred Tolson for replying as soon as you could. Unfortunately, it was not soon enough for some. And thank you Richard Gartner for responding as soon as you came onto the site.

President Fred Tolson, I have some comments on your explaination post. I understand that MaleSurvivor must keep all visitors to the site safe and that we do not have the financial resources to make that happen at this time. I respect the difficult decision you and the board had to make, I may not like the result, but I respect the work you have put into making MaleSurvivor a safe place. In your response, you gave a simple apology for the lack of explaination of the closure. You state that the board has been debating the closure for a year, I assume that you know it is a valuable support resource for many members and guests. Then why was it closed without notice? This question was asked many times by many people, but was not addressed. Can you please respond to the reason in a year you and the board couldn't see the need for an explaination? I know that this whole thing started in the late hours last night and snowballed before you and other board members could reply. When aware of it you began to write a response, yet did not indicate that you were aware of the discourse that was happening on the boards. Why couldn't you have made a small post to let it be known that the response would be coming, rather than having the guests and members stew in there discontent and anger?

These are questions I have asked earlier, and as a member, I do believe I and the others are entitled to a full response.

Now for all you that wish that the chatroom be saved, donate. Help provide the money to get the servers, software, and support to create a safe chatroom that MaleSurvivor can proudly call safe. Donate to the general fund, donate to the other funds to get MaleSurvivor financially sound. Donate to the Legacy Fund to ensure a life-time of financial security. Donate so that MaleSurvivor can expand to include programs that you want added.

Thank you for your consideration,
Bill

_________________________
Pain is Temporary; Quitting lasts Forever. - Lance Armstrong

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#126016 - 01/28/04 12:45 AM Re: Chat room closing...
Fred Tolson Offline
Past President
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 375
Loc: Denver, CO
OK guys, I’m going to be frank with you.

When I was elected President I believed the future needed to look very different from the past. MS has for years focused upon meeting the needs of all survivors. This was our honeymoon period if you will.

The disaster of last year’s conference was the result of things that none of you are aware of. Regardless of these reasons, this board was culpable because in the end we are responsible for everything MS sponsors.

Well, the honeymoon is over. Difficult decisions, hard work and a different kind of growth lie ahead of us. I am willing to make the difficult decisions and do the work. Having said this, understand that I do NOT make decisions that affect our programs and services by myself. First I am answerable to the Executive Board and then the Board. When someone gives us $5000 or $1 I feel responsible to protect his or her investment in MS.

As I expressed to the board in Minneapolis, I do not expect everyone to agree with my agenda and vision. I told our board I was going to impose financial accountability for our decisions and a different way of thinking about our work.

I read the impassioned pleas, honest skepticism, thoughtful suggestions and misdirected rage of some of the users tonight. One thing you can be assured of and that is MS will grow and prosper. The board of directors may need to make even more painful decisions. I now have learned the importance of providing timely information to our members if and when this should happen again.

I don’t know how to be more honest with you than to say my only loyalty is in doing whatever I can to insure our survival. I suspect just about anyone is more qualified to deal with the feelings and needs of our members than me. I am just one of many who have given years to this thing we call MS. Those who know of my efforts understand.

Here is an email I received only today from our ISP.

From: Verio Customer Service
Date: Tue Jan 27, 2004 1:23:00 PM America/Denver
To: webmaster@malesurvivor.org
Subject: [malesurvivor.org] Transfer Notification

malesu
MaleSurvivor
Fred Tolson
PMB 103
5505 Connecticut Ave NW
Washington, DC
US


Dear Webmaster,

Per your request, this is an automated message to inform you that your Web site transfer for this month has reached your notification setting of 6000 MB. If this amount exceeds the allotted data transfer of 10000 MB for this plan type (Silver (FreeBSD)) you will be charged for overages. You should now set new data transfer limits by clicking the "Update Invoice Method" link in your Control Panel or consider upgrading to a plan, which accommodates a higher level of data transfer. Please contact sales@verio-hosting.com if you have any questions.

Thank you,

Verio

Month: January

Userid: malesu
Plan: Silver (FreeBSD)
Web: 6152

Usage: 6152
Over: 152

Verio


Well, this is yet another problem that needs to be solved. Do we ask members (again) for financial assistance? Do we do away with more programs? Would anyone even care about the truth or just raise more hell? I am responsible to keep this web site going. Many of us over the years have quietly subsidized MS. We did so because we believe in MS and our mission. Again the honeymoon is over.

MS needs to learn how to pay our own way and if this means a painful growing period then so be it.

You guys have contributed so much of yourselves and I deeply respect you. You take on the many challenges of your personal lives and those you encounter here and you come back every day and do it all over again. Only we who do this can ever appreciate this gift you have given to those who seek us out.

I’m open to solutions that are feasible and grounded in sound business practices. We could lease ChatSpace (our old chat room client) if it is still available as a hosted service. The charges then were approximately $650 annually. I don’t know what they are today. Even if we raise this money or someone donates it, the issue of safety is still of concern to the board and myself. I will ask Tom and Steve to help the board draft a program de>

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#126017 - 01/28/04 01:19 AM Re: Chat room closing...
James_dup1 Offline


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
Fred,
Thank you for this detailed reason. I'll admit I was one of the ones you discribed as having "misdirected rage" for my part in all of this Im truly sorry. I cant even begin to think of what it must be like to try to run this site. I got caught up in the heat of everything. What upset me was the posting with nothing more as to why. And I let that anger over that cloud my good sence. As for leaseing chat space again if that is something that could be worked out in the budget I know me for one would rather have that one back. It was a more user friendly chat program. I think most of the men here would agree that while the chat room is an important part of the support we get here that it is a small part of the work that this site does. So how about instead of saying "permint" you say untill futer notice or something like that. I think the thought of it being gone forever really bugged me. So Fred I am sorry for my part in calling for blood today. I could have handled my part much better and acted like the adult I like to pretend I am ;\) . Is there any way we as a group can have more time to try to brain storm a way to keep the chat open. Maybe till the end of Feb. or something. Just a thought.

_________________________
I have more issues than Rolling Stone!


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#126018 - 01/28/04 01:26 AM Re: Chat room closing...
Andrew Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/25/03
Posts: 1192
Thank you Mr. Tolson for your detailed and impassioned explanation.
Obviously we have financial problems. It seems clear to me that we need to have everyone as a paying member. Perhaps we can offer a 30 day free membership and then a fee becomes mandatory for continued us of MS services. Peace, Andrew

_________________________
there is no courage without anxiety

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#126019 - 01/28/04 01:57 AM Re: Chat room closing...
Bill_1965 Offline
Chat Mod Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 1983
Loc: Flint, Michigan
Thank you Fred for the honesty and candor.

Bill

_________________________
Pain is Temporary; Quitting lasts Forever. - Lance Armstrong

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#126020 - 01/28/04 03:18 AM Re: Chat room closing...
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thank you Fred, for the way in which you replied. I appreciate knowing that there is someone who is willing to make these hard decisions for the betterment of the organization.

I am not a member and have chosen not to be, or to donate any money since returning to this site because I had not seen any sort of proper business management until now. I have been in business management for many years and the first thing I thought of when I heard the chat space was closing was, "its obviously money related and the problems that might be associated with it regarding safety are just one reason why this was the service chosen to be cut."

I'm sure that I have as much reason to be upset about this as anyone else, as I've personally used the chat more than any other aspect of this website, but unlike many of the other responses I've seen in this thread, I wanted to post and say thank you.

Thank you for making a decision like that so we don't lose ALL of the services. Thank you for taking the time from your family, from your personal life, as well as your business life, to donate time and energy to this site as well as to everything that MS is endeavoring to represent.

Perhaps with this vision you have for the future of MS, as well as the steps that the entire board will be taking to support that future, more people like myself may be more inclined to put financial and other support into this organization.

Keep up the good work.

Len


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#126021 - 01/28/04 04:58 AM Re: Chat room closing...
markgreyblue Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 5400
Loc: Pasadena, CA
i am anxious to give ideas for non-profit fund raising -
i would be willing to go to foundations, corporations, and individuals for grants or donations although this is not my area of expertise - but -

I would have a vested interest in pursuing this goal -

please let me know -
Mark
(as non- attractive and mood spliting as this sounds perhaps pharmeceutical ad banners might be an option as well?--gross though)

_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



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#126022 - 01/28/04 09:45 AM Re: Chat room closing...
michael Joseph Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/11/01
Posts: 2719
Loc: Virginia
I havent been posting very much, but I feel the chat room has provided a way for us to comunicate. If it is done away with this place will not be the same, and we will have to go to yahoo or msn and have conferences.

If this does happen, there will be less action at this sight and it will bite them in the butt.
There is no way this can be a good thing. I hope things change for the good of the sight, there are many men here I consider friends.

MJ

_________________________
Standing together is so much better than hiding in the dark.
***I am a three time WoR Retreat Alumni***
The Round Table, Men's CSA Group, Monday 7:30pm CST, MaleSurvivor Chat

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#126023 - 01/28/04 11:39 AM Re: Chat room closing...
Rick Goodwin Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 56
Loc: Ottawa, Ontario, CANADA
Hi Folks:

No doubt like others, I have been caught in the wave of this thread, and have had my emotional reactions to it. Some of the comments have been hurtful, some have been constructive. I believe Fred's recent posts have help grounded the issue, and the issues behind it.

I want to say that as a Board member, I have fully supported this decision, and stand by what Fred has said. If we cannot ensure safety of our members, I am not willing to run the risk that the chat service (or anything else we do) will create a situation of further abuse. Safety comes first and safety comes last.

That being said, there have been a number of events that have factored into this difficult decision. Most of them have been kept (and may need to be kept) in the confidnece of the Board.

Things can be said about the lack of transparency on this item. On some matters, it is best to keep matters behind closed doors, until we (as a board) are fully together on an item). While this issue never disappeared from our radar screens (and there was debate on the board level), other issues concerning the conference and then our very existence have cdominated our attention. All of this in a board that is spread out over the continent, working busy lives, and paying our own expenses to keep this work happening.

If these issues encourage you to get active in MS, please do so. We have a number of committees that need energy. If you haven't given to the org. in relationship to your need, do so. if you want to get involved on the board, positions will come up (committee work is the best way to learn about the org.)

But if you want to rant, or slam volunteers, or call for heads, please do it elsewhere. I can appreciate disappointment, but the rage that has been triggered is not helpful to anyone. We need to keep our eyes on the prize and work together.

I welcome responses either on the board or off-baord.

Sincerely,

Rick Goodwin
Board Secretary, Board Member
rgoodwin@themensproject.ca

_________________________
Rick Goodwin, MSW RSW
Executive Director
The Men's Project/Le projet pour hommes
Ottawa, Ontario, CANADA
"Helping men and their families build better lives"
www.themensproject.ca

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#126024 - 01/28/04 12:30 PM Re: Chat room closing...
James_dup1 Offline


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
Rick,
I would like to tell you sorry my part in this thread. And tell you thank you for your post.
James

_________________________
I have more issues than Rolling Stone!


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#126025 - 01/28/04 12:37 PM Re: Chat room closing...
markgreyblue Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 5400
Loc: Pasadena, CA
i appreciate your concern and protection of feelings here rick - but i also have to say that i cannot say that these reactions are at all unwaranted or unexpected - Having worked for a Major Coporation with a chat room associated with it - people become very VERY used to their chat community -
In a place that is for Healing and Support from traumatic events - these reactions are very understable and is a more reason compelling reason for an expectation of such angry and distressed reactions -

_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



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#126026 - 01/28/04 12:39 PM Re: Chat room closing...
markgreyblue Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 5400
Loc: Pasadena, CA
rick again though - i am energized to help - just very sad - and will help out with any thing i can do - to help

_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



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#126027 - 01/28/04 12:44 PM Re: Chat room closing...
Rick Goodwin Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 56
Loc: Ottawa, Ontario, CANADA
Hey markgreyblue:

Yes, it is all (painfully) understandable. And it also is therapeutic for all of us: as survivors, we need to work at getting out of the life stances of victimhood, perpetratorhood, and abandonment of our own authority. Once we do that, we can heal.

We are stronger is we work together. Peace and best wishes, Rick

_________________________
Rick Goodwin, MSW RSW
Executive Director
The Men's Project/Le projet pour hommes
Ottawa, Ontario, CANADA
"Helping men and their families build better lives"
www.themensproject.ca

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#126028 - 01/28/04 09:01 PM Re: Chat room closing...
Richard Gartner, PhD Offline
Past President
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/20/00
Posts: 404
Loc: New York, NY, USA
I am embarassed to say that until this afternoon I did not realize that there was this long thread about the chat room. That's why I posted my earlier answer on the Ask the Board Forum, which I moderate, and did not respond here. So many things have been brought up in this thread that it's hard to figure out what to answer. I think I will leave the accusations and blaming alone -- it seems that most of the people who posted them have re-thought their positions.

What I want to be clear about the Chat Room is that there are (at least) two separate issues about the closing. People have focused more on the financial ones, which are considerable and important. But what first made us consider closing the Chat Room was the safety issue. We felt that there was no way for us to insure that some of the very young and/or vulnerable survivors who come to the Chat Room would be protected. And we were faced on several occasions with what were clearly predators who invited young survivors for private chats, and probably contacted them outside the MaleSurvivor web site as well. While we have no knowledge about any young man being abused through this strategy, it is an intolerable possibility, and one which we don't feel we can protect against given our technology, number of moderators, etc. (This does get us back to the money issue.) And, as we considered the web site and its value in its entirety it seemed like the Chat Room was the most labor-intensive (on our part, since we have to moderate as many as we can AND screen all the other public and private chats, which are recorded) as well as the most vulnerable to abuse by predators. All of these factors (and probably others I am not thinking of right now) led us to the decison to close the Chat Room.

Having spent time in the Chat Room myself, though not recently, I am painfully aware of its value. Believe me, it was not an easy decision to make, and perhaps that is why we implemented it badly. I apologize for that to all who were unnecessarily hurt by the way we announced the decison. And I applaud all of you who are now moved to step forward to help the organization.

Richard Gartner
Past President
MaleSurvivor

_________________________
www.richardgartner.com

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#126029 - 01/29/04 07:36 PM Re: Chat room closing...
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
This topic has been moved to the "DISCUSSION BOARD QUESTIONS" forum.

All the recent topics regarding the efforts and offers of help to keep Male Survivor the number one Survivors site are being held there.

Please go there and carry on the discussion, Male Survivor appreciates your help and support.

Thanks

Dave ( Lloydy )

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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