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#122876 - 12/02/06 10:14 AM Check this out!
endlessjourney Offline
Member

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 518
Loc: Cincinnati Ohio
I don't mean to get into politics but I think this is something that everyone should see.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3560732002144128071&q=have+you+forgotten&hl=en

this site is eye opening.

No matter what it is, please don't stop fighting for what you believe! My tears are falling as I write this.

Much love,
Jason

_________________________
Truth is the very reason we strive to live. It surrounds and resides within us. Accepting the truths we already know and seeking out those we do not is a direct path to inner balance and joy. For life is not a means to an end, but a journey. Life comes and goes but the truth will always live on.

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#122877 - 12/02/06 04:14 PM Re: Check this out!
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
on 9-11 a whole country became survivors. maybe some dont support the war but we better thank god for the kids yes kids who are fighting so we can stay free,thanks jason. adam

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#122878 - 12/02/06 04:48 PM Re: Check this out!
batcountry Offline
Member

Registered: 09/20/06
Posts: 263
Loc: the ether
haha whatever

this doesnt belong here. and shadow, you cant speak for everyone

_________________________
nothing to see here

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#122879 - 12/02/06 05:08 PM Re: Check this out!
Hauser Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
Loc: United States
Yep, this needs to be moved to off topic. Big can of worms here.


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#122880 - 12/02/06 05:32 PM Re: Check this out!
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
hey bat fuck you k?

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#122881 - 12/02/06 05:38 PM Re: Check this out!
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
also i dont know where your from but those kids that your laughing at are fighting for you too ,but thats how it works right ?let somebody else die so you can be safe.my response had nothing to do with the war its about guys fighting for freedom ,your freedom

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#122882 - 12/02/06 05:41 PM Re: Check this out!
batcountry Offline
Member

Registered: 09/20/06
Posts: 263
Loc: the ether
fuck me because i have a different opinion than you? do you believe everything the bush administration spits out at you? have you ever really THOUGHT about it and realized they are fighting for jack shit?

my good friend died in iraq, dont fucking tell me what to think. and yes he was just a kid. why is it ok that we are killing them again?

_________________________
nothing to see here

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#122883 - 12/02/06 05:45 PM Re: Check this out!
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
dont fucking laugh at me k?so i guess your friends death is funny to you? what do you think we should have done ?nothing? i dont care what they are fighting for k?just that its fucking people like you that made the guys who fought in viet nam feel like criminals. maybe they dont have a fucking clue why they are there ,but they think its for freedom why cant you see that? its not busch fighting is it?

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#122884 - 12/02/06 05:50 PM Re: Check this out!
batcountry Offline
Member

Registered: 09/20/06
Posts: 263
Loc: the ether
um i wasnt laughing at you, i was laughing at the idea that this would "open my eyes." i didnt even notice your post until after i edited.

what do you mean, done nothing? do you remember that iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, right? what
"freedom" are we fighting for now, in 2006?

i am not laughing at the soldiers. their cause is worthless and they are dying in vain but they themselves are just kids who trust their government too much and thats a sad thing, not a funny thing. dont put words in my mouth.

_________________________
nothing to see here

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#122885 - 12/02/06 05:53 PM Re: Check this out!
batcountry Offline
Member

Registered: 09/20/06
Posts: 263
Loc: the ether
oh and by the way there was a DRAFT for vietnam, you HAD TO GO. they were not fucking criminals they were unfortunate kids. just like the kids in iraq. even if we dont have a draft now they still use incredibly underhanded recruiting strategies.

my eyes are WIDE open.

_________________________
nothing to see here

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#122886 - 12/02/06 05:54 PM Re: Check this out!
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
if it made you laugh for any reason i feel sorry for you k? dont put words in my mouth ,i didnt say i was speaking for everyone did i?

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

Top
#122887 - 12/02/06 05:56 PM Re: Check this out!
batcountry Offline
Member

Registered: 09/20/06
Posts: 263
Loc: the ether
it was a sarcastic laugh, im not sitting here and actually laughing at anything. "haha whatever" is not a happy or funny laugh. its a bitter one. yes i am very bitter about all of this, anyone should be, we've been dealing with this bullshit for 5 years and there is no end in sight.

and yeah when you say things like "maybe some dont support the war but we better thank god for the kids yes kids who are fighting so we can stay free" that is basically the definition of speaking for everyone.

_________________________
nothing to see here

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#122888 - 12/02/06 05:58 PM Re: Check this out!
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
sorry i'll shut up ,guess im just not politicly correct huh? i feel things with my heart not my head just a bad habit i have

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

Top
#122889 - 12/02/06 06:00 PM Re: Check this out!
Brian Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 1563
Loc: Upstate NY
Guys,

It's time to cool out. This discussion is not doing anyone any good. There are very strong emotions and opinions on both sides of this issue.

Lets get back to discussing our CSA issues and concentrate on healing ourselves if we could, please.

Recovery is Possible!

Brian

_________________________
Recovery is Possible!

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#122890 - 12/02/06 06:00 PM Re: Check this out!
batcountry Offline
Member

Registered: 09/20/06
Posts: 263
Loc: the ether
actually you are the one that is PC. it is very PC to say what you said, ever looked around you?

try using your head sometime though, there's this thing in there called a brain, and it's really useful.

_________________________
nothing to see here

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#122891 - 12/02/06 06:00 PM Re: Check this out!
batcountry Offline
Member

Registered: 09/20/06
Posts: 263
Loc: the ether
sorry brian didnt see your post, it appeared as i was typing.

_________________________
nothing to see here

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#122892 - 12/02/06 06:02 PM Re: Check this out!
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
well fucking excuse me for saying we instead of i

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

Top
#122893 - 12/02/06 06:09 PM Re: Check this out!
batcountry Offline
Member

Registered: 09/20/06
Posts: 263
Loc: the ether
i am not continuting this discussion any further, a mod has told us to chill out and this thread should never have been in this forum in the first place. you should do the same

_________________________
nothing to see here

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#122894 - 12/02/06 06:51 PM Re: Check this out!
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
brian i didnt see your request either,i didnt attack anybody just made a comment on something that touched me.

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

Top
#122895 - 12/02/06 08:59 PM Re: Check this out!
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
OK Guys, Brian was right, I did not watch it owing to the subject.
Its too triggering to go back there, we dont need reminding of that in this place.

Dont worry, none of you are to blame,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#122896 - 12/03/06 10:50 AM Re: Check this out!
endlessjourney Offline
Member

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 518
Loc: Cincinnati Ohio
I'm sorry for bringing forth such a conflict. I can relate to shadowkid's view in that those kids feel like their fighting for our freedom and dying for it. We should respect that. However, we are all in question about why we are there in Iraq. I can also relate to Batcountry's view that this war could be out of vanity and greed. This is not about whether or not 9-11 has to do with Iraq. Either way, this was about 9-11 and not Iraq! I have people over there that I love too and I don't necessarily put all of my trust in the powers that be. The kids over there are not just fighting for the government. They are fighting for what they believe in. Thats what my post was all about. I mentioned that politics are not the issue. We fight along side those troops. We fight for the freedom of those who suffer. Not for money, pride, or oil. We fight to survive and to ensure that all that is good survives. At least I do. No matter what political propoganda we absorb, Its important to reflect on the truth and nothing else. Both sides have valid points and I give little credibility to those who see things one sided without respecting the opinions of the other side. No one is right or wrong here. Remember that we are all here in this together. They say this was a bad topic. I feel it was a good one and we needed to get this out of our system. I open myself to discussion with anyone who wants to talk about this. Just know I respect everyone's opinion and I would hope that all of you do the same.

Much love,
Jason

_________________________
Truth is the very reason we strive to live. It surrounds and resides within us. Accepting the truths we already know and seeking out those we do not is a direct path to inner balance and joy. For life is not a means to an end, but a journey. Life comes and goes but the truth will always live on.

Top
#122897 - 12/03/06 05:46 PM Re: Check this out!
TJ jeff Offline

Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 3365
Loc: Northern Wisconsin
Jason,

I know you did'nt mean for such a conflict to happen over this - don't be hard on yourself - you posted of something that was weighing heavily on your heart - and this place is for talking about things that weigh heavily on your heart

I joined the military before the iraq war - I did it somewhat out of my love of the freedoms of this country and somewhat to escape my past - how could I have known that I was gonna end up fighting in iraq for 2 six month tours of duty... - I do not agree with much of what this countrys government has done over the past few years - and yet... - there is growing problems over there that simply cannot be ignored either... - I know some say 9-11 would never of happened if we had never gone over there in the first place - but... - I believe that it would of happened eventualy no matter us going over there or not...

just my thoughs...

TJ jeff

_________________________
Who will cry for the little boy? - I will... - Antwone Fisher

Abuse happens in silence/isolation - Recovery happens only when that silence/isolation is broken...

TJ's History

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#122898 - 12/03/06 05:48 PM Re: Check this out!
Alexander Offline
Member

Registered: 10/17/06
Posts: 223
Loc: The Netherlands
ehm so okey everyone has different opinions on this?
That SHOULD be okey isn't?
Come one don't fight eachotter like that.
Let's all have respect for eachotter and eachotters choices and opinions..
Fighting eachotter like this, now THAT's stupid.
But hey, that's just my opinion..

Alexander

_________________________
Come on, oh my star is fading
And I see no chance of release
And I know I'm dead on the surface
But I am screaming underneath

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#122899 - 12/04/06 12:25 AM Re: Check this out!
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16264
Bravo, Alexander! Well spoken!

Love to all of you regardless of how you feel on the above subject.

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#122900 - 12/04/06 01:18 AM Re: Check this out!
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
i apologized for my comments in a pm ,the response i got was uh well ok then ,my feelings got hurt and i responded the only way i know. adam

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

Top
#122901 - 12/04/06 01:44 AM Re: Check this out!
Hauser Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
Loc: United States
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#122902 - 12/04/06 10:39 PM Re: Check this out!
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
I know that operation Kenyan freedom was stopped because there was no money in bananas or freedom.
The once breadbasket of Africa, is almost totally destroyed, leading to mass famine.

It is genocide by stealth no less.

Genocide of the nations we see as terrorists who were once our neighbors.
Wars dont cure anything, they kill, and smart bombs still kill indiscriminately. If you dont believe me, google, daisy cutter.

Wars get rid of about 20% of nuclear waste, as the warhead is supposed to make it more accurate.
A few tons of nuclear waste on Iraq is OK, but they are forgetting that mother nature has her way on dumping it back where it came from :p

Nuclear subs heading to Iran, what next!!!

North Korea, forget it, the Pentagon computers did a mock battle with them.
Korea won of course, hands down.

Let us see an end to senseless bloodlust in this World,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

Top
#122903 - 12/05/06 12:04 AM Re: Check this out!
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
all of these fucking fanatics were killing each other for hundreds of years long before the us got involved and does anybody have the balls to see the real reason for all of this shit?RELIGON,yes religon its all in the name of god ,its not about oil or bannas,or money its about the great and allmighty god!the same god that does nothing ,if there really was a god does it make sense that he would let it all happen in his name ,if everyone would just admit its all a fucking fairy tale there would be no wars.

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

Top
#122904 - 12/07/06 08:59 AM Re: Check this out!
VN Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 723
Wow. I do not know if ever perhaps politicks is good subject for here. Is it we do not have enough pains with our own experiences that make us to be here, we must fight among each other also over things that we have not control of?

I am not American. I have no right to comment at American politicks and I will not. But it do not matter I think what the opinion of the President and the war is. The fact is, people are dying, and that is something never to be 'laughed at' or looked over. It is not the persons who are in that situation to be blamed for it, but to be supported. But that is just my opinion.


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#122905 - 12/07/06 09:49 AM Re: Check this out!
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Wars never were anyghing to do with religion.
It is about mans greed to rape other countries of their wealth.

Thousands of innocent ppl die in these conflicts of interest every day of the year.
No war has ever gained much excepting the pain of the masses.

Operation bloodbath (Iraq) was predicted by the experts to end the way it is going, why? Did they not listen!

Every man, woman, and child has the right to live beyond war, and peace is the only way forward, and for man to live with his neighbors peacefully,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

Top
#122906 - 12/08/06 05:56 AM Re: Check this out!
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
War is about power. Always has been, always will be.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#122907 - 12/08/06 11:45 AM Re: Check this out!
wojax Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/22/04
Posts: 171
Loc: Florida
Remembering 9/11 still brings tears to my eyes. I think it ashame that people from this country would not be moved by all the death that was caused. Im a 20 year vet of the Army. I love this country and every thing it stands for...I have much respect for the young men and woman that are fighting overseas for me. I can only say the fact that you can come into a place like this and express yourselfs tells me they are doing a good job. May God keep his hand on them.
Love it or leave it.......

_________________________
Jer 7:23 ps 91:16

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#122908 - 12/08/06 12:31 PM Re: Check this out!
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
thats what i been trying to say here wojax ,hey thanks k?for the time you spent protecting us all the ones who appreciate it and the ones who dont adam

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#122909 - 12/09/06 03:42 AM Re: Check this out!
endlessjourney Offline
Member

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 518
Loc: Cincinnati Ohio
Yes, thank you for the sacrifices you've made for us. This conversation did take a turn for the worst. Regardless of what our government's intentions are, my heart lies with the troops.

Much Love,
Jason

_________________________
Truth is the very reason we strive to live. It surrounds and resides within us. Accepting the truths we already know and seeking out those we do not is a direct path to inner balance and joy. For life is not a means to an end, but a journey. Life comes and goes but the truth will always live on.

Top
#122910 - 12/09/06 03:53 AM Re: Check this out!
endlessjourney Offline
Member

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 518
Loc: Cincinnati Ohio
By the way, regardless of whether or not the chicken came before the egg or vice versa, we were attacked. Innocent people were slaughtered and regardless of my conservative or liberal views, something had to be done. If we let them come here pull that shit without a fight, then we might as well give them the bullets to put in their chambers. Iraq, once again, a different story. However, I want my kids and grandkids to be safe if there is anything left of this world tomorrow. I feel we were justified to go after Al-queda beyond a shadow of doubt. Now I'm not talking about Sadam, Haliburton and Cheney. The only thing I know is, they come back on our front door with beef, I will pick up arms to defend my nation. I don't wanna go looking for trouble, but if I someone else is looking for it with me and my country, then they sure as hell have came to the right place! Not for greed. For the love of my country and its safety. NOTHING ELSE!

Much love,
Jason

_________________________
Truth is the very reason we strive to live. It surrounds and resides within us. Accepting the truths we already know and seeking out those we do not is a direct path to inner balance and joy. For life is not a means to an end, but a journey. Life comes and goes but the truth will always live on.

Top
#122911 - 12/13/06 01:01 PM Re: Check this out!
sis Offline
Member

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 195
Loc: Arizona
Hey,
as i read your posts i am blown away. i have had something very important, to me, posted in F&F and then again in off topic. the information i am asking for is information that might help me not hurt another survivor by not understanding sometimes i do that. all this energy could be used to help the survivors and their families by venturing out and offering requested support. this war and our government i have my own oppinions on but don't you see that you guys almost started a war of your own here? hello! Light and luv, sis


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#122912 - 12/13/06 11:15 PM Re: Check this out!
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
emotions run high on these subjects but we are all friends here at the end of the day

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#122913 - 12/13/06 11:24 PM Re: Check this out!
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
your right it is about power the power to say my god is best

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#122914 - 12/14/06 09:06 AM Re: Check this out!
endlessjourney Offline
Member

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 518
Loc: Cincinnati Ohio
I love you guys. that's all I have to say.

Jason

_________________________
Truth is the very reason we strive to live. It surrounds and resides within us. Accepting the truths we already know and seeking out those we do not is a direct path to inner balance and joy. For life is not a means to an end, but a journey. Life comes and goes but the truth will always live on.

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#122915 - 12/14/06 12:55 PM Re: Check this out!
Thomson Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/12/06
Posts: 30
Quote:
on 9-11 a whole country became survivors. maybe some dont support the war but we better thank god for the kids yes kids who are fighting so we can stay free,thanks jason. adam
Where is your sence of justice adam? As a survivor you should know that it is wrong to unjustly wage war against people who are innocent. 3000 people died in US, but in Iraq today 3500 people are dying every month, almost all of them civilians. Yet we know that Iraqis were not responsible for 9/11.

_________________________
There is enough light for one to see the truth.

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#122916 - 12/14/06 03:48 PM Re: Check this out!
Hauser Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
Loc: United States
Thomson is right. Also, consider this: History did not start on 9-11, or Dec 7th, 1941 for that matter.

Our government has been meddling in the affairs of foriegn countries since the Spanish American War.

Consider this: How is it that our country, which is surrounded by 2 VAST oceans, and 2 friendly neighbors, has so embroiled itself in the affairs of other nations on the other side of the planet, that people are willing to GIVE THEIR LIVES just to attack us in the only way they are capable of?

If you respond to this question by saying that they hate us for our "freedoms" and "prosperity", then why did they not attack Sweeden or Switzerland? I've known people that live in Switzerland and they have told me that not only are they more free there, (relaxed drug laws, less taxes, etc.), they make more money per capita there as well. If anyone deserves to be attacked for their freedoms and prosperity, surely it's the Swiss.

There was a time, before the Spanish American War, (you know, when the French people gave us that Statue of Liberty), that EVERYONE in the World loved America, and America loved the world. We had no one to fear, becuase we weren't poking our nose into everyone's business. They loved America because they looked at their own countries which had there aristocricies and monarchs and oppressive laws and said to themselves "But look at America!!, in America we won't have a number attached to us, we won't have a percentage of our income extorted from us as a price for going to work, we won't be purscuted for having faith in a different God, we won't be jailed for doing unpopular recreational activities, etc."

And here's where I have another problem, was our Presidents order to invade a forign country even Constitutionally Permissible? Well, I've READ the constitution and in Article 1, Section 8, only the Congress, not the President can declare war. And I call invading a country on the other side of the planet a war. I could go on but I guess my point is that I don't question people's patriotism, I question my government's actions.

Sorry I'll shut up.


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#122917 - 12/14/06 04:55 PM Re: Check this out!
shadowkid Offline
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whos killing them thomson? were they not killing that many daily before the war? im not saying any war is right or justified . this stuff goes on everyday the u s being there is the only fucking chance any of them have to be even a little safe. and i know that to most people i look like the fool here but you know what if you guys believe all this killing is about money or power then you guys are more in the dark about the truth than i am ,its about god!their god our god nobodys god . the quickest way to heaven for these people is to die killing americans ,somebody haS TO TRY TO KEEP THESE FUCKING LUNATICS FROM BLOWING UP OUR WORLD ,WHO SHOULD IT BE ?

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#122918 - 12/14/06 05:03 PM Re: Check this out!
shadowkid Offline
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personaly i think we should get out of iraq and let the fucking fanatics go right on killing the children if enough of them die then i wont have to worry about some fucking raghead blowing up my world. when they set off a dirty bomb in your town dont expect the govt. to help you.

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#122919 - 12/14/06 06:47 PM Re: Check this out!
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Adam. You didn't seem to want to answer my question. Why did they attack us in the first place?


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#122920 - 12/14/06 07:05 PM Re: Check this out!
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Iraq did not attack the states, 9/11 had nothing to do with Iraq.
Al Queada has nothing to do with Iraq.

They do have oil in Iraq which is worth killing for, and the gas pipe in Afghanistan is why they are there, not to fight the Taliban.

No force can equal the Taliban, as the Russians found out after fighting them for 8 yrs and losing so many.

By far the worst type of terrorism is state run, and kills many millions in its wake,

ste

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#122921 - 12/14/06 08:07 PM Re: Check this out!
shadowkid Offline
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tell me

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#122922 - 12/14/06 10:15 PM Re: Check this out!
Hauser Offline
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Because America has taken sides in so many conflicts, some examples listed here:

In the 1980s our government sent military equipment to Iraq's Saddam Hussein to help him fight the Ayatollah in Iran. Much of the American equipment was used in 1990 to help Iraq invade Kuwait. So our children were sent to Iraq to depose our one-time ally Saddam Hussein — now described by our politicians as a modern Hitler. However, even after the U.S. killed thousands of civilians and soldiers, Hussein remained in power.

Our government enlisted Panamanian dictator Manuel Noriega in the fight against communism. But in 1989 the U.S. military invaded Panama, killed a number of people, kidnapped Noriega, took him to Florida, and imprisoned him — supposedly to stop the use of Panama as a relay station for the drug trade. Noriega still sits in a U.S. prison, but there's no indication that the drug flow through Panama has abated. In fact, the drug cartels of South America move freely into Panama because America destroyed Panama's army in 1989.

American politicians went to the Philippines to monitor elections, pressure the Philippine people to get rid of Ferdinand Marcos, and end corruption. Marcos lost the election, but corruption is as rampant in the Philippines today as it was then — and the subject no longer seems to interest American politicians.

Our government bombed Libya in 1986, killing a number of civilians, to force Muammar Khadaffi to end his support for terrorists. But two years after our government supposedly taught Khadaffi a lesson, a bomb destroyed a Pan American Airlines flight over Scotland, killing 259 people — and our government says Khadaffi was responsible.

During the 1980s our government helped the "freedom fighters" take power in Afghanistan. In 1998 our government bombed those same Afghans, claiming they were now harboring terrorists.

In Rwanda, Somalia, Bosnia — wherever our government has meddled — the only consistent outcomes have been American deaths, American tax dollars wasted, the sacrifice of thousands of innocent foreigners, and no lasting solution.


Now to answer your question again Adam:

Because America has armed so many countries' enemies, because America has imposed so many "solutions" on so many people, because American troops occupy so many countries, because America is telling other countries on the other side of the planet what kind of governments they must have, because America is telling other leaders what they must do,the world has become dangerous for America.

Foreigners generally love McDonald's but hate our government. Foreign politicians and terrorist leaders exploit that hatred. And now and then foreign terrorists try — or pretend to try — to change our government's polices by bombing American targets here or abroad.

But our policies don't change, because politicians never respond to problems by letting go of their power. So, instead of doing something to eliminate the motive for actual or threatened terrorism, our politicians "fight" it with even more foreign adventures.

And they issue a steady stream of alarms about frightening problems around the world — all of which supposedly require our immediate attention and intervention.

But why should we have anything to fear? Our country is bounded by two friendly nations and two vast oceans that protect us from invasion.

I wish it was as simple as:

American Government=Good

and:

Other Governments=Bad

You have to remember that these are the SAME politicians that promised to end drug abuse, with a War on Drugs, and now we have the highest incarceration rate of any country on this planet (I'm pretty sure). And drugs are just as widely available and more potent than ever.

These are the SAME polititians that promised to end poverty, and now we have millions of people living on Government Welfare and there is nothing to show for it.

These are the SAME politicians that promised to make health care affordable for everyone, (like it was in the 1950's, before the Federal Government got involved in health care). I have not had health insurance for over 2 years now because, guess? I can't afford it.

And now, these SAME politicians are promising to end Terrorism by what? Changing our insane foriegn policy? Oh no, we'll simply have to keep doing what they've been doing.

Here is my favorite example of our Government's complicity in making sure that terrorism is here to stay:

General Pervez Musharraf of Pakistan. He is an un-elected military dictator, and he is very much hated by many of his own people and has had NUMEROUS attempts on his life. His citizens do not have many of the freedoms that we take for granted in this country and THEY know who enabled him to come to power there, the U.S.

So I hope I answered your question.

Now I have a question for you ok? \:\)

What do you think will happen if/when Musharraf is assasinated? (Remember, Pakistan is full of Muslims and they have nukes).


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#122923 - 12/14/06 10:26 PM Re: Check this out!
Hauser Offline
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Sorry I'll shut up. Once I get started with politics, well..............

Hey maybe I missed my calling? Should I run for office? \:\)


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#122924 - 12/14/06 10:35 PM Re: Check this out!
reality2k4 Offline
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ppl want power over ppl, the way its always been, push, shove, greed, forget it, who knows!

Sometimes the heavy hand is dealt fatal blows, not by massive bombs but cleverly thought out tactics.

That is how we fought as kids to win,

ste

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#122925 - 12/15/06 05:06 AM Re: Check this out!
shadowkid Offline
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well we could just wait for them to start blowing us up instead of going where they are and trying to stop them . either way sucks but with one we at least have a chance of stopping them from not just blowing the us up but maybe the whole world

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#122926 - 12/15/06 12:29 PM Re: Check this out!
Leosha Offline
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It is very sad, as is any assault upon innocent human beings (Rwanda, Beslan, Darfur, etc).

Leosha

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#122927 - 12/15/06 12:51 PM Re: Check this out!
Thomson Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by shadowkid:
whos killing them thomson? were they not killing that many daily before the war? im not saying any war is right or justified . this stuff goes on everyday the u s being there is the only fucking chance any of them have to be even a little safe. and i know that to most people i look like the fool here but you know what if you guys believe all this killing is about money or power then you guys are more in the dark about the truth than i am ,its about god!their god our god nobodys god . the quickest way to heaven for these people is to die killing americans ,somebody haS TO TRY TO KEEP THESE FUCKING LUNATICS FROM BLOWING UP OUR WORLD ,WHO SHOULD IT BE ?
You are wrong my friend. Whether they were killing each other in that number is not the point (besides this claim being extremely erroneous), the question is why would USA go to war with someone who are not even distantly involved in 9/11. Saddam was a dictator and killed his own people, but Bush lied to his public about nuclear weapons and al-qaeda links for his vested interests.

What you see today in Iraq is the destablization caused by US occupation, and can only end when US is out of Iraq and doesnot meddle in their internal affairs

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#122928 - 12/15/06 01:36 PM Re: Check this out!
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Ite called CONTROL! No difference from ABUSE!
Control others gives control over you and everyone who accepts control, not me,

ste

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Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#122929 - 12/15/06 03:04 PM Re: Check this out!
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This is true ste. I would add that my Government would not be able to even exert that control that you speak of, were it not for the opprosive income tax that I am forced to pay. My governement recieves 2 1/2 TRILLION DOLLARS EVERY YEAR! And the BEST solution that they can come up with to "end terrorism" is to go around the world and bombing the hell out of people.

With, ok, let's number this out; $2,500,000,000,000 can't keep 19 guys with box cutters from hijacking planes and attacking us? Obviously our government is doing something wrong. Hell, they can't even keep any two-bit dictator with nuclear missles from being able to attack us with an effective missle defense.

One of the few things I admired about Ronald Reagan was that he wanted an effecive missle defense for America. But, instead of offering a reward to the first private company that developed an effective missle defense system, he handed over money to the Defense Dept, and they are NO WHERE NEAR successful developement of a missle defense system.

So, what does our Government do in the mean time? Oh, it lobs missles at asprin factories in Sudan and lobs tomohawk missles at Afghanistan and sends Marines to Lebenon, (anyone remember the 1983 Marine Baracks bombing where almost 300 Marines died at once?). I could go on about American interference with other countries affairs but I think you get the point. There isn't a conflict that happens ANYWHERE in the world now that doesn't involve my government meddling.

Most of my fellow citizens are to busy just trying to pay the bills and raise their families to pay attention to what the American government is doing. But those people that lost sons, sisters, mothers, fathers, and other loved ones know DAMN well who killed them, MY GOVERNMENT. That is why they hate us!!


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#122930 - 12/15/06 03:26 PM Re: Check this out!
reality2k4 Offline
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Hauser, my fav reporter is John Pilger, he commented on how the RAF were protecting the Kurds from a base in Turkey by day, only to see Turk jets loaded with missiles bombing the Kurds at night.

The scary thing about the UK, is you can buy a gun for little money, and where? Did they come from! The war in Bosnia saw the sale of tons of guns from pistols to AK47s.

My City is flooded with them, and the thugs who use them in robberies and drug wars.
Next it will be the cops if they dont do something serious about it.

If they invade Iran or Syria, they will be entrering the nuclear theatre, and that is what nobody wants, and as dictator Rumsfeld once said, "why are we sitting on all these nukes and not using them".

Faces of evil/death,

ste

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#122931 - 12/15/06 04:23 PM Re: Check this out!
shadowkid Offline
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question? if the u.s. is so bad ,if we are the great satan ,why do people die everyday trying to come here? i can say one thing for sure,in about half the countries in the world you guys would be stood up against a wall and shot for talking about the govt. this way . and someone mentioned places like switzerland being neutral ,well guess what its places like that who have no defense that the terrorists will attack first. as for iraq if you give shelter to the terrorists and let them train kids in your country then you are opening yourself up to attack . maybe ,just maybe its the fact that we as americans believe people should be free that pisses everyone off so bad. as for the number of people dying in iraq i didnt come up with the numbers i find it hard to believe that 3500 people die there daily ,hell they would run out of people real quick.bottom line is they were killing each other and their neighbors long before we got involved . in america we love our children we dont fuck them or sell them or train them to be fanatics maybe the rest of the world is just jelous ,also if its about oil then why does gas cost as much or more than before iraq ,where is all the oil we have stolen from poor people like sadam? also these countries have more money than haLF THE WORLD ,BUT THE PEOPLE ARE STARVING!do they share the wealth with the common man ,yeah right ,also in america we dont take hostages and cut their heads off on national tv ,maybe we should start?

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#122932 - 12/15/06 04:59 PM Re: Check this out!
Hauser Offline
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You are remiss in your facts my good friend. Or, (for you Star Trek Fans) "You are in error!". (If anyone can tell me which episode that's from, you need to get a life!)

Notice that the Swiss are NEVER attacked? They have NOT been atacked for over 100 years, and they're in the middle of once was war-torn Europe!

How do they do it? They trade with EVERYONE! They levy sanctions against NO ONE. And they DO NOT TAKE SIDES in other countries disputes!! They mind their own damned business, which is what this country once did, and we were loved all around the world.

Adam, you see that Statue of Liberty in New York? Do you know who gave that to us? France right? Wrong!! It was FREELY given by the PEOPLE of France, NOT THEIR GOVERNMENT, via private donations. Why did they do this? Because they ENVIED America, they said to themselves "We know that we can live in a society where no one would fasten a number to you, where no one would ask you for your papers, where no one will extort a percentage of our income as a price for going to work, where the police can't just invade your home without due process" "We know we can have that because we see it over there in America".

What's my point? There was a time, before the Spanish American War, that America was LOVED all around the world because we gave HOPE to the people that were living under oppressive regimes. We showed them that it was possible to be FREE!! But that country is now gone!!! We are no longer unique in this regard. We are just another empire, with military bases in over 100 countries around the planet, and piles of debt that we're going to make our future generations pay off. We now have socialized education, socialized medical care, social INsecurity, shall I go on?

We are NOT the America that was once loved anymore. America fears the rest of the world and the rest of the world now fears America.

Ok I'll shut up.


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#122933 - 12/15/06 05:15 PM Re: Check this out!
shadowkid Offline
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how long had it been since anyone attacked the us? history dont mean shit when the world goes insane

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#122934 - 12/15/06 05:32 PM Re: Check this out!
Hauser Offline
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Well, the last time a foriegn COUNTRY attacked us was Japan, after our President Roosevelt told them to get out of China, then told them to get out of Manchuria and Korea, then told them to get out of South East Asia entirely, then he froze all Japanes assets in the U.S., then he put up an oil embargo on Japan, then he, put an embargo on steel and other vital resources that Japan needed as an island nation in order to survive.

So, what our President was literally saying was "It's ok for the French to have colonies in Asia (French Indo-China), it's ok for the Dutch to have colonies in Asia, (Dutch East Indies), it's ok for the British to have colonies in Asia, (India, Hong Kong, Singapore), but you Japanese can't have colonies and we will starve you as an island nation unless you do what I say".

That was the last time we were attcked and Roosevelt baited the Japanses into attacking us becuase our people were so distraught over the horrors of WWI that they wanted nothing to do with war in Europe. Roosevelt desperatly wanted to go to war with Hitler but the isolationist movement was so strong in America that the only way he could get Congress to declare war on Germany was to bait the Japanese into attacking the U.S.

Maybe I should be a history teacher? heh


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#122935 - 12/15/06 05:43 PM Re: Check this out!
shadowkid Offline
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where do you think you would be if japan had won the war? or germany? do you think the terrorists will not chop off your head if you dont agree with our govt.? and i'll say it again its only because you live here that you can say these things ,do you agree with that?

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#122936 - 12/15/06 05:58 PM Re: Check this out!
Hauser Offline
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Freedom to speak out against one's government exists all over the world, (mosty in western countries allbeit).

Japan never had a chance to win. Any military historian will tell you that

Germany coulnd't even cross the British Channel, how could they have hurt us? Hitler wanted desperately to avoid war with the U.S. at first. But don't get me started with Hitler and how American Interference in WWI facilitated Hitler's rise to power. (uh-oh, what did I start?).


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#122937 - 12/15/06 07:52 PM Re: Check this out!
reality2k4 Offline
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The problem with Hitler, is that he always used the same tactics against his enemies, the Russians who I admire picked up on this, and did a counter pincer movement on their troops.

The Russian winter took heavy toll on their troops as they were not equipped for it.
The code breakers in the UK were instrumental in bringing about Pearl Harbour.

They sent your admiralty an intelligence report that the wolfpack was about to destroy part of their fleet, a warning that was ignored.

When the code breakers discovered Pearl Harbour was next, they did not pass on the information.
You have to realise that code is not broken for fun and countries need to act on intelligence or lose further tips.

You guys like us, are losing your basic "freedoms" every day, to capitalism,

ste

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#122938 - 12/15/06 07:55 PM Re: Check this out!
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This conversation is way to intense for me to even begin to get involved in, but I have one question.

Hauser, why the hell aren't you a history teacher or paid historian? Everyone may not agree with your view on things, but your knowledge is quite impressive.

Trish

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#122939 - 12/15/06 08:05 PM Re: Check this out!
Hauser Offline
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I failed college 3 different times, that's part of why I'm here. I do like to talk about history and politics though.


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#122940 - 12/15/06 08:25 PM Re: Check this out!
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Quote:
Originally posted by reality2k4:
You guys like us, are losing your basic "freedoms" every day, to capitalism,

ste
“The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion.”

Albert Camus

Freedom is entirely up to you.

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#122941 - 12/15/06 08:51 PM Re: Check this out!
reality2k4 Offline
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I turned rebel as a kid, not to hurt, but to survive in this harsh world,

ste

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Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#122942 - 12/15/06 09:03 PM Re: Check this out!
shadowkid Offline
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whats the answer ,do nothing and wait till its in our backyard? everybody has opinions ,but nobody has the answer.

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#122943 - 12/15/06 09:29 PM Re: Check this out!
Hauser Offline
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Quit giving them legitimate reasons to hate us.

Example: All throughout the 90's our country imposed sanctions on Iraq, and hundreds of THOUSANDS of men, women, and children died as a result of it. Excerpts here:

Lesley Stahl on U.S. sanctions against Iraq: We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?

Secretary of State Madeleine Albright: I think this is a very hard choice, but the price--we think the price is worth it.

--60 Minutes (5/12/96)

Then-Secretary of State Madeleine Albright's quote, calmly asserting that U.S. policy objectives were worth the sacrifice of half a million Arab children, has been much quoted in the Arabic press. It's also been cited in the United States in alternative commentary on the September 11 attacks (e.g., Alexander Cockburn, New York Press, 9/26/01).

Now Adam, if your Mom or Jimmy or Jason were killed because of a foriegn country that imposed these kinds of sanctions on your country, how would you feel? Would you maybe be inclined to do whatever you could to kill Americans?

Think about it.

We need to quit bullying other countries.


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#122944 - 12/15/06 09:31 PM Re: Check this out!
Hauser Offline
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Were loosing our freedoms to government, not to capitalism.


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#122945 - 12/15/06 11:04 PM Re: Check this out!
reality2k4 Offline
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Capitalism already runs countries.
They choose who runs which country.
When ppl realize what war really is about, and what it really means, will they listen? NO!

Why? Cannot man live with man!
Is it that we create a world of insecurity and wreck social conditions under our own noses through exclusion.

When man is able to use his own mind, and look at the real information before his eyes is a long way off, and fact not fiction rules the earth, vice versa.

I often wonder why the US has not removed Mugabe from Zimbabwe?
Is it because of someboys' will! Of course it is

Imagine the largely untapped oil supplies under Africa, they leave Mugabe to kill off the indigenous peoples to take control of vast areas of land.

Never sell your soul to the devil, he has no price on mine,

ste

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Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#122946 - 12/15/06 11:57 PM Re: Check this out!
shadowkid Offline
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hauser lol,in 1996 i was 11 years old locked in a closet with both eyes swelled shut,current events wasnt big for me ,lol . but hey ok i'll admit maybe its our govts fault! now that we all feel better,lol,lets get back to the question ? what the fuck do we do now? ok its our fault ,but that dont solve the problem does it?im really gonna go crazy here but i'll say it !!!my great great ,however many greats it is ,grandfather fought in the civil war for the north ,and for some twisted reason i am proud of that ,but shit he was probably on the wrong side too ! i give k? lol adam

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its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#122947 - 12/18/06 09:53 AM Re: Check this out!
Thomson Offline
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Registered: 12/12/06
Posts: 30
Adam, what you(i mean your government \:\) ) need to do is, as Hauser beautifully put it, stop meddling in affairs of other countries. That is the bottom line, if you cross it then whatever happens would be your fault.

Let me tell you a story about Middle East. A long time ago (not that long though, in 70s), there was a dictator called Saddam, he was ruling a country called Iraq. There was another neighbouring country, Iran, headed by another dictator, Reza Shah. Both enjoyed enormous US support and both were eneomously repressive. Then in 1979, a revolution came to Iran, headed by khomeini who was fed up of US meddling in their oil industry and repression of Reza Shah (he wouldn't hesitate to shoot on peaceful masses). US convinced Saddam to attack Iran and as a result 2 million people died (Saddam notoriously used chemical and biological weapons provided by US support). And when the war was over Saddam became a bad guy.

Some other facts.

1. Taleban and Al-Qaeda were created by US, Pakistan and Saudi Arab to counter the Soviet influence in Afghanistan, back then they were good guys.

2. US today is greatest supporter of Arab states, all having dictatorships. The only country in the Middle East close to democracy is Iran, yet its a bad guy.

3. In 1974 US was building an atomic reactor in Iran, no one raised a question about the need of such a reactor, but in 2006, they don't understand why its being built by Iranians.

The list is unfortunately so long that it would consume a lot of time. I would stop here.

_________________________
There is enough light for one to see the truth.

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#122948 - 12/20/06 10:51 AM Re: Check this out!
endlessjourney Offline
Member

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 518
Loc: Cincinnati Ohio
I love my country and I love those who died for it! No reason to fight about this. Our government has its corruptions. Who are we. The U.S. Who are we? No matter what happens, I will always fight for our nation. I will never let this shit go unheard. The bottom line is that we were attacked. Whoever says that Bush brought 911 on us, show me the facts. I don't care to hear pointless opinions. Lets hear what you base your claims on. Your own biased opinions hold no grounds here. Biase is ignorant! God bless America! Don't let your political propaganda and hatred cloud your judgement. Do you not see what is happening around us! If we do not fight this, we die. Period. You are fighting your own nation. I'm sick of people dogging those who are the reason why we live in freedom today. Corruption is in every government but if we do not stand together, we are all sitting ducks!!!!

_________________________
Truth is the very reason we strive to live. It surrounds and resides within us. Accepting the truths we already know and seeking out those we do not is a direct path to inner balance and joy. For life is not a means to an end, but a journey. Life comes and goes but the truth will always live on.

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#122949 - 12/20/06 11:24 AM Re: Check this out!
reality2k4 Offline
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Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
You have just proven that you are indeed one of the many sitting ducks!
If you seek freedom, go to places where man is not, because you are never free,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#122950 - 12/21/06 05:26 AM Re: Check this out!
Nobbynobs Offline
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Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
edited

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When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#122951 - 12/21/06 04:57 PM Re: Check this out!
Hauser Offline
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Well, you have said quite a bit in that one paragraph, with all it implies. So, let’s step back just a little bit ok?

I’m NOT merely posturing a political stance, ok? I’m hoping that by having a discourse such as this, I may well prevent people from dying in the future, by simply telling the truth(s) that my country’s media never brings up.

I don’t want anymore people dying and suffering in my country’s good name. And to this end I’m willing to speak against the insane foreign policy that my country has embarked upon, starting with the Spanish-American War to present. I don’t want foreigners to die, and I don’t want my own country’s brave servicemen dying for, what we’re sure to soon find out, is not a worthy cause.

And unfortunately, this also means that I’m taking the unpopular stance of not standing by my countries soldiers, as valiant and brave as they are. Why?, because it’s my countries soldiers that INVADED and is now a STANDING ARMY in a foreign country on the other side of the planet that never threatened us, (while it ignores other countries that HAVE openly threatened us, i.e. North Korea, but they can actually fight back so my country opts for “diplomatic solutions” with North Korea. It is my country’s soldiers that are running checkpoints and asking a foreign country’s citizens for their “papers”, (even though they’re “free” now). It’s my country’s soldiers that are bombing, and shooting at, and KILLING men, women, and children. It is my country’s soldiers that are also imposing a system of government on a country, replacing a terrible dictator with one that suits the desires of a my President, who’s judgment is in serious question.

Now, having said that, and after giving NUMEROUS and plausible reasons why foreigners have legitimate reasons to hate and want to attack us, you, my friend, have not given ONE example of where the sacrifices of all the thousands of men that have died in foreign countries in past wars have somehow ACTUALLY defended my freedom. The fact is, you CAN’T. Every competent military analyst would tell you that the threat of a foreign invasion and conquest of America is nonexistent. No nation has the military capability of invading and conquering the United States. Not China, not Russia, not Iran, not North Korea, not Syria. Not anyone. To invade the United States with sufficient forces to conquer and “pacify” the entire nation would take millions of foreign troops and tens of thousands of ships and planes to transport them across the Atlantic or Pacific Ocean. No foreign nation has such resources or military capabilities and no nation will have them for the foreseeable future. Even at their zenith of military power, Germany could not even cross the English Channel, and Japan was HOPELESSLY bogged down in a war with China and they simply were no threat to us.

Now, perhaps you think that liberating people from dictatorships is a worthy cause, fine, please feel free to go over there yourself and fight for what you seem to perceive to be a worthy cause, give them all of YOUR time and money and help, but please don’t think it’s ok for my government to take MY hard-earned money to help fund a military war machine that goes abroad and meddles in the affairs of other nations, incites hatred for the U.S., and creates for itself moments like 9-11, a moment when somebody actually pushed back after WE pushed them first.


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#122952 - 12/21/06 05:45 PM Re: Check this out!
markgreyblue Offline
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Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 5400
Loc: Pasadena, CA
Hauser,

You forgot Operation Petticote:

"We may be pink and coming in
by the grace of a woman's brassiere,
but we're coming in."

or did You?

_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



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#122953 - 12/21/06 05:47 PM Re: Check this out!
markgreyblue Offline
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Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 5400
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I have no answers for this one.

_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



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#122954 - 12/21/06 05:51 PM Re: Check this out!
markgreyblue Offline
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Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 5400
Loc: Pasadena, CA
The war and savagery by anyone is an horrible..

I hope some lesson at least - will come of this - as insanely callous I may seem.

I have to either laugh - and get on with my life -

or offer some reason - to hope for a better way to cope that keeps my life and my friends moving forward and surviving better together.

_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



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#122955 - 12/21/06 10:14 PM Re: Check this out!
reality2k4 Offline
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Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Think before you talk, Governments know how to control ppl, they are past masters at it.
To brand the middle east as a haven for terrorists many of whom were past 'freedom fighters' when they did the dirty work for our Governments suddenly need to be eradicated, job done.

A bit like the Pharos, who killed all those who knew about where the buried treasures were.
Lets face it, they pick on easy targets, and lets not forget the many unreported wars, or rape of vital assets of rich mineral countries who fled without fight.

A war machine led by a bunch of liars, who were warned of the carnage that would erupt in Iraq.
A war in Iran would have to be fought in the nuclear arena, that must be avoided, because Iranians are no walk over.

Soldiers sent on a hopeless mission to Afghanistan to fight the worlds most fierce and trained fighters, whose training consisted in fighting yours and our best trained marines.

The Taliban are known to never take hostages, they will kill you, as you are invading their territory, the land they live in.

Those men of the Taliban are survivors and well trained in their own survival and how to cause maximum damage to any enemy they meet, because they use base instinct, caveman type, kill or be killed.

Wear your enemy down until they are mentally not able then strike them hard and run.
Any war with Iran would cause war with Russia, and China.

A war with Korea is out because they have figured the consequences of warring with a nation that is at least fanatical towards their own 'freedom' to live.

Wars are senseless, and the vulnerable are the ones who get it, with kids having legs blown off in a country that has no social backdrop for disabled excepting charity workers as is viable in a war zone.

Come on, surviving is about truth in the world and looking more closely about what war is really about, not the movies, the real thing, the real shit that comes out of war, kids maimed, family dead and all the other shit.

Survivors against war,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#122956 - 12/25/06 11:57 AM Re: Check this out!
endlessjourney Offline
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Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 518
Loc: Cincinnati Ohio
I do think before I talk and I don't appreciate your belittling comments ste. What I'm saying is that there are countless terrorist plots against the U.S. Our government may be corrupt. I can't say I would blame a nation for retaliating if another one invades it. However, it is important to protect ourselves. Yea, maybe no nation can invade us and take over the U.S. but they sure as hell can kill plenty of us. In 911, did Al qeada take over the U.S. No! They just killed thousands. You must be an advocate of the concept "turn the other cheek". Why don't you just invite them in and say "hey! its OK to kill us, were bad and we take over the world". For all of your information, I never advocated invading other countries including Iraq accept for going to afghanistan to hunt down Al-Qeada. Please read what I wrote and don't speak out of your anger and political angst. I hear your opinion and respect it. There is no need to formulate your own biased propoganda. This is a common debate, not a boxing match.

Hauser,

Thank you for your statement. Your replies are always held in high regards by me. Firmly I believe that we should step up our security in our nation. The plot that was foiled by british operatives about four months ago is an example. The terrorist plot to send thugs over here on planes to bomb the airport in NY is one example. Another plot was foiled recently, catching terror plots to bomb the tunnel that runs beneathe the english channel. This is not just about us, but is about the western civilization as a whole. These terrorists (not all muslims or middle easterners)want to kill us. They have stated it repeatedly. I would imagine that you have seen that on the news. CNN etc... Yes, we pissed the world off but we can't just stop protecting our country. These people need to know that, "if you kill our people, you will suffer the wrath of the Red white and blue". I advocate patriotism, not emperialism.

Jason

_________________________
Truth is the very reason we strive to live. It surrounds and resides within us. Accepting the truths we already know and seeking out those we do not is a direct path to inner balance and joy. For life is not a means to an end, but a journey. Life comes and goes but the truth will always live on.

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#122957 - 12/25/06 02:56 PM Re: Check this out!
froggy12 Offline
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Registered: 11/12/06
Posts: 527
Loc: Marlboro, MA 01752
Power corrupts
Absolute power corrupts absolutely

Lord Acton

frogman, ribbit

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#122958 - 12/25/06 03:15 PM Re: Check this out!
markgreyblue Offline
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Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 5400
Loc: Pasadena, CA
froggy you are so right -

the legacy of such is a tragedy.

_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



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#122959 - 12/25/06 06:28 PM Re: Check this out!
reality2k4 Offline
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Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Those who wield the sword of power, the ones who are too cowardly to fight their own evil deeds, but use others as their tool of war, it wasnt always like that, but sadly today it is.

Think Peace!
Talk Peace!
Make Peace!
Seek Peace!

You will be rewarded for your effort ;\)

G- ribbit,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#122960 - 12/29/06 07:33 AM Re: Check this out!
Hauser Offline
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Jason, I will respond to this, in good time. I want you to REALLY think about the questions that you have asked me in the mean-time, ok?


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#122961 - 12/29/06 08:07 AM Re: Check this out!
endlessjourney Offline
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Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 518
Loc: Cincinnati Ohio
Hauser,

You'll have to be more specific about which questions you are speaking of. I also could think about my own perspective over and over and have the same result. You see, I look at everything I see around me and observe of all sides of the story, not just one. I don't make judgements on anger or insecurity. Ste mentioned all of those who have power are evil "Those who wield the sword of power, the ones who are too cowardly to fight their own evil deeds, but use others as their tool of war, it wasnt always like that, but sadly today it is". That is immensely irrational but I can understand what it is like to never trust any authority from my past experiences which I am sure you can relate as well. There has to be some order instilled in any group of people or this world would be in intense chaos. You may say it is now but, fortunately, you don't have to worry about barbaric tribes coming into your home, raping and pilaging. We do not do that to other nations. Yea there are some troops that give the rest of us a bad name as well as some politicians but I believe are intentions are for good. "It is all about greed". Yes, there is money involved. There is something of value involved in conflict we have.

Instead of fighting against ourselves, over criticizing, and saying what we are doing wrong, why don't YOU come up with some solutions. This world can and will not function without leaders, period. Hauser, I think you need to do some thinking yourself. You and Ste are in this fantasy world and neither one of you can say what would be best for this nation. All you are doing is complaining. Even as a child, I've learned that whining never gets anything done.

I have a lot of love for both of you but I feel that both of your views are extremely biased, which inturn distorts your perceptions of reality. If the government was out to get us, we would be slaves. If you say we are, then I don't think you know what a real slave is. You say we take advantage of the rest of the world at everyone else's expense, well, we invite the rest of the world into our nation as well. Would that make any sense to you.

By the way, thanks to the U.S., Saddam, a mass murderer of 100's of thousands is being put to death. GOD BLESS AMERICA!

Also, you're not the only ones that have loved one's in Iraq. I do as well. Some of them are very educated and are still proud to be there. I am proud of them.

Why don't you really think about that... OK?

Jason

_________________________
Truth is the very reason we strive to live. It surrounds and resides within us. Accepting the truths we already know and seeking out those we do not is a direct path to inner balance and joy. For life is not a means to an end, but a journey. Life comes and goes but the truth will always live on.

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#122962 - 12/29/06 07:43 PM Re: Check this out!
Hauser Offline
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Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
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Thank you for elaborating Jason. Complaining? Me? \:\) Yes, I have I been. Ok, no more complaining, and time to offer some solutions. Yes, I could go on complaining but I think you got my points. Ok so here goes:

I would like to offer a solution to what you had eluded to in that earlier post in which our governments of the U.S. and U.K. have kept us safe since 9-11. But I MUST ask again Jason, WHY are they still trying to attack us? I don't know how many times I have to ask this and be ignored. This is a very important question, and I strongly suggest that if this a question that we do not force ourselves or our leaders to answer, nothing will change, we will have perpetual war, with the enemy at the gates the rest of our lives.

Now, having given JUST SOME reasons for why we're hated all over the planet I will make a suggestion of how to make the terrorists back off and not want to kill us anymore ok? In other words, we won't HAVE to be CONSTANTLY trying foil terrorist plots against us if thugs like Osama Bin Ladin cannot muster up the finances and network support that he and his ilk need in order to hurt us.

You DO realize that Osama and other terrorists rely on regular people to help protect and finance their terrorist activities right? Example: You live in Sudan, you live next to an Aspirin factory, an American Cruiser launches Tomahawk missiles at said aspirin factory because American "Intelligence" has led it to believe that said asprin factory is harboring terrorists. As a Muslim citizen who's loved one, a Father, Brother, Mother, is KILLED by Americans with their missiles, you then have an incentive to protect and support people like Osama Bin Ladin, because he is one of the only means at your disposal for getting back at the people that killed your loved ones.

Jason, this is not unlike the fact that Hitler used the hatred of the French that invaded the Ruhr Valley in 1922 in order to keep the Germans from becoming an industrial power again. Hitler was the ONLY one that stood up to the hated French, and the German people KNEW that he fomented a lot a hatred towards other people like the Jews, but they didn't care, he was the only one that dared to speak out against the hated French that INVADED their country without even declaring war, (sound familiar?) Does this make sense to you? Sorry I will elaborate a little more:

Hitler alone was no threat to ANYONE hardly, but Hitler, using LEGITIMATE reasons to garner support and money, became a figurehead of evil and power that killed millions of people that he would otherwise have never been able to do. BUT, EVEN THEN (sorry I have to add this) this would NOT have happened (Hitler's rise to power) if President Woodrow Wilson had not crafted the income tax to finance the entry of America into WW1, tipped the scales of power to the Allies favor, (when in 1916, after years over bloody and horrifying trench warfare, the Germans and the French were on the verge of signing a truce), and consigned the German people to humiliation and economic deprivation. What’s my point in this small digression? AMERICA’S MEDDLING IN THE AFFAIRS OF OTHER COUNTRIES DISPUTES CREATES UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES. Our entry into World War One facilitated Hitler’s rise to power. This is not some wild conspiracy theory; it’s a matter of public record.
Ok, enough history. I will now propose a solution. Here goes:

President Bush could actually do something SMART! He could hold a press conference or go to the U.N. and make a public statement. In that statement he could say this:

“I’m sorry that I can’t undo 100 years of unacceptable and mistaken American Foreign Policy. As Commander-in-Chief, I am ordering all American Forces to come home and they now have orders to defend ONLY ourselves. I am asking the Congress to withdraw from NATO. I am issuing this order because I now understand that the presence of American forces all over the world is the principle cause of anti-American sentiment which provides support, networking, and manpower for thugs Like Osama Bin Ladin. I am going to stop telling other countries who their leaders should be or what their foreign policy must be. I can buy off foreign leaders with American tax money, but I can't buy the friendship of the people in those countries – people who suffer because of misguided policies forced on them by our past deals with those leaders.”

To continue, President Bush could go on to say:

“I am ending ALL foreign aid, military and economic. I now realize that it’s a terrible system of whereby poor people in our rich countries give money to rich people in poor countries and those rich people are typically dictators who rule over people who know damn well who put those dictators in power. I am no longer taking sides in foreign political or military battles, the inherent unintended consequences of America’s meddling in the affairs of other nations is simply to great a cost to pay for whatever immediate rewards are ever gained in the first place. I now realize that most foreigners don’t care if we’re a “free” country, but that they DO care if we’re interfering with their own country.”

And in final:

“I am asking the Congress to put up a taxpayer financed reward for 100 Billion Dollars to the first private company that can develop and build a working missile defense system for our country, and our country alone. With a working missile defense system, my fellow politicians and our future leaders will no longer have an excuse to pry into the affairs of other nations. They will no longer need to issue a steady stream of alarms and frightening problems all over the world that demand our interference because they will no longer have anything to fear of other nations. And when THIS happens, along with our neutral foreign policy, would-be terrorists like Osama Bin Ladin will no longer have the finances and support and REASONS to attack America. This having been said, America’s past foreign policy is no excuse for Osama Bin Ladin’s presumed crimes of the horrible acts of 9-11, but he will be given a fair trial once he is caught, and he will pay for his crimes if he is found guilty.”

Now, Jason, if our President actually had some BALLS and a little bit of humility, he could END all of this. But he won’t. He’ll just “Stay the course” as he loves to say.

It doesn’t have to be this way.


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#122963 - 12/29/06 09:57 PM Re: Check this out!
reality2k4 Offline
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Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Jason, never trust those in authority as Government figures, they are liars, just wanting to fill their own pockets with rich pickings.

I have been watching the middle east since I was a boy of 17, when Israel took on Syria, and the Golan heights saved Syria from deeper invasion because of the tactical position.

One country in the middle east uses us as poodles to do their dirty work, and they want the middle east to themselves devoid of Arabs.

Afghanistan was invaded to put a huge gas pipeline through from Russia against the Taliban who said they will fight any invasion.

No weapons of mass destruction were ever found in Iraq, and Iran is no threat to anybody.
Why? The lies! Greed to forge into territory to rape it of its assets.

Think of the unthinkable, your president who has stakes in the oil industry who uses Government money to make his stakes worth more to him.

How many Enron employees mysteriously committed suicide?
For whistle blowing on money being laundered and shady dealing.

The Taliban, not long ago hailed as freedom fighters, now find themselves an enemy in their own land.

It was OK when they did your countries dirty deeds, but then they fall fowl of their masters.
They are seasoned fighters, brought up from birth to fight any incursion of their territory.

The most highly trained fighters are no match for the Taliban fighter, the Russians found that out long ago after infliction of heavy casualties on their troops.

Osama Bin Laden will never be caught, he is still a Saudi Prince, and nobody wants to irk the Saudis, as they hold so much stock in the American economy, and he also knows too much.

I wish there was peace on earth, we all expect it, but it seems always so far away.
Jason, No, I was not taking a pot shot at you, but it is fair to say that I do read a lot of stuff from seasoned reporters.

Look up Noam Chomsky, he is a leading achedemic on world affairs, and he has a huge fellowship,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#122964 - 12/31/06 09:23 AM Re: Check this out!
endlessjourney Offline
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Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 518
Loc: Cincinnati Ohio
Hauser, I am dissapointed that you of all people would compare Bush to Hitler. Also, I have close friends in Iraq. In fact, a few came back this week. Do you think that they will just blow up some "aspirin factory" just because they suspect that the place harbors terrorists? You think that they kill innocent people aimlessly because the "suspect" something. The marines have to cover there own asses and prevent things like that from happening.

By the way, we took our troops out of germany in the 1920's and let Germany regroup on there own. Look what happened. A threat much greater than Kaiser Wilhelm II had arised. If we do not finish the job, things will get worse.

Why do they keep attacking us? Because radical Islam is full of tyrant mentalities. The ignorance of these people keeps them down and causes them to follow suite. They speak out against their leaders, then they are put to death. Much like hitler. If anything, the terrorist should be compared to Hitler. Not the U.S.

America's entry into World War I prevent the Germans from prevailing as well as World War II. We were attacked and left with no choice. We would be speaking German right now if we hadn't. So would the U.K., France, and the rest of Europe. We tried to stay out of it but the Germans made the mistake of attacking us. We had no choice. If we did not intervene, our Allies would be shattered and so would we. Our mistake was giving the axis the chance to regroup.

Yes, within the U.S., the sources for Bin Laden to attack us were derived. So, can we blame the whole country for that? Is that Bush's fault? "If all else fails, blame it on Bush". What a bunch of garbage.

Our president has balls. That is why were are fighting that war. Regardless of the constant scrutinization of the liberal media, he stays his course.

You know one thing. I speak directly with those troops that fight this war. They tell me that about 95% just want to get the job done and go home without anymore issues. Those who speak against our troops are the reasons why they can't get what they need to finish the mission. They need to do their job and they need all of the support they can get. They have mine. They are the reason I have the freedom to live in this country.

Saddam is dead! The Iraqi gov't condemned him to death. Not us. Yea, we didn't loose any sleep over his death but his massive acts of genocide were dealt with appropriately. He wasn't even tried for a fraction of his crimes and he was still put to death. Many of the muslims were competing to be the one's that hung him.

Ste,

I can't say that 100% of my trust lies in the government but I also can't say that they are evil just because they are an Authority figure.

Yes enron is corrupt. Very good. Does that mean that the whole U.S. government is corrupt?

I respect the fighters of Afghanistan but, the Taliban was responsible for attacking us. The Russians could not phase them. They attacked us, and we invaded their country and have anhialated the vast majority of them who were responsible for 911. We did what we said we would do.

I am glad you aren't "taking shots" at me but I will say one thing, what makes you think that the media and what you read is the truth. I have read things from resources that I would construe to be reliable. That does not mean that they are necessarily "right". The media distorts information no less than our government.

Ste, I deal with those who fight on the front lines and live this war everyday. Even when they are back in the States. They know why they are there and what they are fighting for. You say the world hates us. If we were not in existance, this world would have self destructed a long time ago. Iran and Iraq has threatened our safety by action and have stated that they wanted "death to Americans". No threat? I think you need to take a step back a evaluate the situation. What language do you speak? English huh. You speak that language because the U.K. didn't back down. Neither did the U.S. Period.

JASON

_________________________
Truth is the very reason we strive to live. It surrounds and resides within us. Accepting the truths we already know and seeking out those we do not is a direct path to inner balance and joy. For life is not a means to an end, but a journey. Life comes and goes but the truth will always live on.

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#122965 - 12/31/06 07:47 PM Re: Check this out!
reality2k4 Offline
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Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Jsson, the Taliban did not cause 9/11 and had no part in it.
The invasion of Afghanistan was done to enable a huge gas pipe to be run through the country.

The invasion of Iraq was done to get their hands on cheap oil, which has not happened.
You wonder why they seek death to America, when they got the hell bombed out of them for nothing.

A senior British Commander wrote the following;

"On President George W Bush and Tony Blair's handling of Iraq, Sir Michael wrote: "They tell us it is the Iraqi government that runs the country.

"This is disgraceful hand-washing. They know, under the Geneva Conventions, they were responsible for the disastrous breakdown of law and order in the country they invaded."

But he said Mr Bush had at least "put his money where his mouth was" by giving resources and support to his troops.

Sir Michael has previously called for Mr Blair to be impeached over Iraq, for going to war on "false grounds".

False grounds "weapons of mass destruction", they still havent found any!

I wonder why?

ste

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Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#122966 - 12/31/06 07:52 PM Re: Check this out!
Hauser Offline
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Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
Loc: United States
I was comparing Hitler to Osama Bin Ladin, not my President, ok? Please note that I respect the Presidency always, but not the current one's insane foreign policy. (Both were harmless until they garnered the financial and networking support of everyday people that had legitimate grievances).

You are remiss in your military history my friend, have you ever heard of "Trench Warfare"? It's a nasty bloody, nasty, terrible way of fighting. There was a stalemate. Germany was NOT WINNING.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trench_warfare

And the Germans and French were SICK OF IT. They were ready to sign a truce in 1916, but NO, the United States mercantile industry ignored NUMEROUS public announcements given by the German Government via Front Page Newspaper ads stating the the waters around U.K. were considered a War Zone and that guarantees of neutrality could NOT be assured. Now, did unrestricted submarine warfare compel us to go to war? Yes. BUT WHAT GIVES WE AMERICANS THE RIGHT TO PRESUME THAT WE AS CITIZENS CAN GO ANYWERE IN THE WORLD AND DO WHATEVER WE WANT AND HAVE OUR MILITARY INTERCEDE IN ANY SITUATION THAT OUR LEADERS WISH TO DO SO IN?

President Woodrow Wilson started the dreaded income tax (which was only to finance WWI but it's STILL with us today, Thanks a lot President Wilson). President Wilson condemned 60,000, that's SIXTY THOUSAND Americans to death, or horrible wounds, and psychological scarrs. AND FOR WHAT? So that French Polynesia could remain.....French?

Jason would YOU go fight and die for a foreign country? Well go ahead, more power to you, but please don't assume that it's ok to take MY MONEY to involve MY COUNTRY'S military in the affairs of the age old problems of Europe or any other area of the world.

When you say that we would be speaking German right now if not for sacrificing SIXTY THOUSAND Americans back then is not only cliche, it's just plain wrong.

HERE AGAIN WE MUST CONSIDER UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES. It is TOTALLY reasonable to assume that had we NOT entered WWI and tipped the scales of power in the Allies favor, there WOULD have been a truce signed by 1916, and the existing governments of Russia and Germany would have remained in power, meaning no Soviet Union and no Hitler coming into being.

Winston Churchill, the leader of the U.K. during WWII and Lord of the Admiralty during WWI said: "America should have minded her own business and stayed out of the World War. If you hadn't entered the war the Allies would have made peace with Germany in the Spring of 1917. Had we made peace then there would have been no collapse in Russia followed by Communism, and Germany would not have signed the Versailles Treaty, which has enthroned Nazism in Germany. If America had stayed out of the war, all these 'isms' wouldn't today be sweeping the continent in Europe and breaking down parliamentary government, and if England had made peace early in 1917, it would have saved over one million British, French, and American and other lives."

But all this is ancient history, so why am I bringing it up? I'm bringing it up because history is more than slogans being taught in High School, (We would be speaking German right now," public education, don't get me started lol) it's human nature being relived over and over, it's a continual confirmation that we must treat our government with great skepticism and to not give it so much money and power that it now has.

And to follow up about why Radical Muslims hate so many foreigners, do you have ANY idea HOW MANY times the Middle East has been invaded and occupied by outside nations? The Mongols, the Russians, the Turks, the British, the French, and many other countries I'm sure have invaded and made colonies out of the countries of the Middle East for many centuries. I don't blame them for teaching their children the truth in that regard, but even the "radical" Muslim leaders that profess true hate ARE NO THREAT to us if they cannot garner the networking, finances and support of regular everyday people that have LEGITIMATE reasons to hate us.


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#122967 - 12/31/06 08:19 PM Re: Check this out!
reality2k4 Offline
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Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Read this, execution just leads to many innocent ppl losing their lives.
Troops are put in more mortal danger by hanging him on such an important feast day.

Quote:
IN MECCA, many Sunni Arab pilgrims voiced outrage. In Gaza, his hanging was compared to the sacrificial slaughter of a sheep on the day of Eid. In Saddam Hussein's own impoverished home village of Awja, they proclaimed him a martyr and promised to avenge him, while in Iraq's Shi'ite and Kurdish communities, they danced in the streets. Whatever the reaction to the hanging of Saddam across the Middle East and wider Islamic world yesterday, the one certainty was that the bombers would strike and the sectarian violence that has wracked the country would be racheted up to another bloody level.

Predictably, within hours of the former dictator dropping from the gallows, 36 people were killed and 58 wounded by a car bomb at a packed marketplace in Kufa near the Shi'ite holy city of Najaf. A little later, another three car bombs ripped through the mainly Shi'ite neighbourhood of Hurriya in Baghdad, killing 25 more Iraqis and wounding 65 others. That more such attacks will come is virtually guaranteed.

For most Iraqis, it had always been a matter of when, not if, Saddam would be executed. Capital punishment is nothing new to the Arab and Islamic world. In Saudi Arabia, beheading by the sword has been carried out for years, while hanging and death from shooting by firing squad is used in other countries.

For many across the Middle East region and beyond, it was not the method of killing Saddam that provoked their real fury - horrific as it was - but the timing of the execution, coinciding as it did with the Muslim feast of Eid al-Adha or festival of sacrifice.
continued...


What is more, the Eid also falls during the five-day hajj, when more than two million Muslims from around the world follow ancient rites at the Islamic holy city of Mecca in Saudi Arabia.

One of the most important dates in the Islamic calendar, Eid al-Adha marks biblical patriarch Abraham's willingness to kill his son for God. In many Muslim countries, criminals are often pardoned to mark the occasion, and prisoners are rarely executed. Perhaps not surprisingly then that for many Muslims, Saddam's execution on such an auspicious date seemed especially vindictive.

"This is the worst Eid ever witnessed by Muslims. I had goosebumps when I saw the footage," said Jordanian Rana Abdullah, summing up the feelings of many Arabs.

Although some Shi'ites may regard his death as an Eid gift from God, for hardline Sunnis it will confirm their worst views against Shi'ites as heretics in league with Washington.

"What is he Saddam, a sheep? I think the Americans wanted to tell all Arab leaders who are their servants that they are like Saddam, nothing but a sheep slaughtered on the day of Eid," said Abu Mohammad Salama, a Palestinian worshipper in that other troubled part of the Middle East, the Gaza Strip.

News of Saddam's death shocked Palestinians, many of whom had seen him as a steadfast ally ever since he launched his Scud missile attacks on Israel during the 1991 Gulf war which ended Iraq's occupation of Kuwait.

While opinions of Saddam the leader and the man might have varied across the region, this disquiet over the timing of his killing was almost universal.

"I don't have any sorrow or compassion for the man, but the timing is very stupid and Muslims will think this was done to provoke their feelings," said Ehab Abdel-Hamid, a novelist and senior editor at Cairo's independent al-Dostour newspaper.

In Saudi Arabia, the leading Sunni power in the Middle East, there was open criticism of Iraq's Shi'ite leaders for their decision to carry out the hanging during Eid.

"There is a feeling of surprise and disapproval that the verdict has been applied during the holy months and the first days of Eid al-Adha," a presenter on the official al-Ikhbariya TV said.

"Leaders of Islamic countries should show respect for this blessed occasion ... not demean it," said the presenter in a statement which was attributed to official news agency SPA's political analyst.

In London, Abdel-Bari Atwan, editor of the Al-Quds al-Arabi newspaper, went a step further in his criticism during an interview with al-Jazeera television.

"Arab public opinion wonders who deserves to be tried and executed: Saddam Hussein, who preserved the unity of Iraq, its Arab and Islamic identity and the coexistence of its different communities such as Shi'ites and Sunnis ... or those who engulfed the country in this bloody civil war?"

In Afghanistan, Mullah Obaidullah, a top commander of the resurgent Taliban, said Saddam's death would galvanise Muslim opposition to the US. "His death will boost the morale of Muslims. The jihad in Iraq will be intensified and attacks on invader forces will increase," he said.

For Arabs and Muslims everywhere, the drama of Saddam's last minutes was brought into living rooms by television pictures of masked hangmen tightening a noose around his neck and later pictures of his body wrapped in a white shroud, his head just visible with a smear of blood on his cheek.

Libya, the only state to show solidarity with Saddam in his death, declared three days of mourning and cancelled public Eid celebrations while flags on government buildings flew at half-mast.

Other Arab governments were more restrained in their reaction, while a senior aide to Arab League secretary-general Amr Moussa called the execution "a tragic end to a sad phase in Iraq's history". But in Saddam's home village of Awja, outside Tikrit, surrounded by orchards and palm groves next to the Tigris river, 90 miles north of Baghdad, locals were both philosophical and angry about the village's most famous son's violent end. It was in Awja that Saddam, 69, rose from poverty to rule Iraq by fear for three decades before he was toppled by the US invasion in 2003.

"Saddam is the legal president of Iraq. If they execute him we will rise up. We will all become a bomb," said one young man who still remained sceptical that the former Ba'athist leader had actually been killed.

One of Awja's older villagers, a woman, was more resigned. "It is God's will. There is nothing in our hands we can do," she said, shrugging her shoulders.


_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#122968 - 12/31/06 09:30 PM Re: Check this out!
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
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Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
this thread has covered so much ground,i agree that our govt. does things we dont know about ,but on 9 11 or in the days after i can safely say that 90% of the american people wanted something done ,all bush did was give the people what they wanted,if he had done nothing he would have been kicked out of office , also history shows that the american people suffered the same things these other countries are suffering now ,but what did the americans do ? they fought for what was right ,for independence and they did it and won . this country might not be perfect,but its the best thing going ,we have more freedom than any other.the iraq people decided sadamms fate not the us ,they chose when to do it not the us ,i think he should have rotted in his own prison till he died ,also it was mentioned earlier in ths thread about how the swiss and dutch have no wars or fights with anybody in the world . very cool . they also account for about 60% of the child porn thats out there,what is the age of consent there?15 ?and are they trying to lower it to 13? my cousin had a huge collection of kiddy porn ,except for the ones he made of me they all came from these peacefull nuetral countries ,whats up with that? i agree with endless, those soldiers are not fighting for bush or for oil they are fighting for an ideal ,that people deserve a choice you dont have to live like we do but you should be able to decide if you want to ,i loved the comment from the iraqi mother of three ,sadam was a hero she said and i will teach my children to kill americans ,well i say bring it on ,in this country our motto is if you fuck with us we will make you pay ,believe it! i agree that it sucks that tax money is used ,but i dont complain that its used for supplies for our military,i complain that its being used to feed, house, educate and provide medical care for those who will be killing us in the near future. i do agree we should get the hell out of iraq ,pull out and let these lunatic fanatics wipe each other out! its been said we caused all of this but history shows these people been killing each other for centuries ,long before there ever was a great satan called america to blame it on .

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#122969 - 12/31/06 09:49 PM Re: Check this out!
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Adam, an eye for an eye, or whatever, is the world going blind.
I learned as a child to do no harm and be a good kid, and I was.

War begets war, terror begets terror.
The troops are in Afghanistan fighting the Taliban who are using weapons made by their past masters the US government.

They are fighting illegal wars in Sovereign countries against the Geneva convention.
My country is filled with machine guns sold after the Bosnian war, and the gangs are using them against the cops.

They are also being used against the people and gang wars over drugs, so let us see an end to violence in our time, for the sake of the kids of today,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#122970 - 01/02/07 07:37 PM Re: Check this out!
Hauser Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
Loc: United States
Ste, although your comments are quite relevant to the subject(s) being discussed in this thread, and I see no reason to disagree with what you've been saying, you seem to focus more on the abuses of power, rather than the fact that if our Governments were not given the cornucopia of money, which in the U.S.A's case, comes from our income tax, they WOULD NOT be able to cause all these problems in the first place.

America once financed it Federal Government with mere tarrifs and excise taxes. And it was a tax system that worked beautifully, because if they raised the taxes too high, we as consumers would simply stop buying the products that they would be presumably overtaxing. BUT, with the passage of the 16th Amendment (the income tax UNNGGG!!!, thanks AGAIAN President Wilson), they have UNLIMITED funds to raise! Why? Because what are we citizens going to do? Not work? We HAVE NO CHOICE but to work and feed and support ourselves and our families.

So my point is, repeal the 16th Amendment, and my country, just as it was unable to enter WWI without the income tax to finance it, would no longer be able to go over over the world and butting into the affairs of other nations and stirring up resentments towards Americans with an insane foreign policy.

ste? Doe's the U.K. tax your income as well?


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#122971 - 01/02/07 09:43 PM Re: Check this out!
reality2k4 Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Hauser, we are paying highly for it here too.
Its the working ppl who pay for a war that nobody really wants or agrees with.

If people knew the human cost of such wars, there would be riots in the US and here in UK.
They are cutting anything they can here, and raising tax by the back door.

I remember seeing an interview with a Chechen terrorist, and he said.
What makes me a terrorist!
"I had to witness my whole family being raped by soldiers and then killed in front of me".

That says much of it,

ste

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